people, please, stay home if you can

[Lua]

Most places that have eased lockdown measures, are seeing an increase in the number of cases. So there is no way around it (at least in the short-term), live a "normal life" and increase the risk for everyone (there are no "personal risk" in a pandemic).

I see a lot of people in mumsnet saying that we suffer too much to save the lives of 80 year olds. While I find this cold assessment horrible on its own, there are so many case of under 60s suffering badly. This is a harrowing picture of 63 year old woman:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/25/from-cold-to-coma-to-homecoming-one-womans-100-days-of-coronavirus

Sure, the risk is low. Sure, we deal with risks all the time. But we also try to mitigate risks all the time. We use seat belts, and we look before we cross the road, we use helmets, etc There are many reasons why someone needs to go into work, and those are understandable. But do people "need" to go to raves, beaches, cinemas? do we really need to go into shops and buy a new summer outfit?

Life needs to be different, and we need to find new ways to make our economy tick. Lots of opportunities in new fields. Lets support each other and look for new ways to make the world go around.

I listed the things that I want

You want people to follow your rules, not the government ones. Ie no going to pubs, even when they’re open.

A lot of UK people are daft idiots who have no idea what social distancing means or don't care, have no idea what lockdown meant, or didn't care, save us now from these self entitled people please.

First klaxon and they were off to have gatherings in their gardens/houses, and now go to the crowded beaches with their fellow idiots! To break every rule in the book. Was ever thus.

Report me if you wish, and many probably will or would like to. Because the truth hurts in many ways.

I don't think the same demented rush to get out there was replicated anywhere in Europe, but Brexit means UK is special, no rules apply.

because others want to insist on having illegal raves or crowding together on the beach or running to the pubs the second they open

Seriously, step away from the shit stirring Daily Mail and social media a bit - the majority of us aren't doing anything like that and are just doing what we are allowed to do.

You say we mitigate risks as we look before crossing the road and we wear helmets when going for a ride. Quite right, but what we don’t do is not go anywhere so we can avoid crossing a road and not go on a bike ride at all.

Mitigating a risk of Covid doesn’t mean not going anywhere at all! We have to balance the risks - it’s cost v benefit analysis

I don't think the same demented rush to get out there was replicated anywhere in Europe

My friends and relatives in France, Spain and Italy have complained of exactly the same things that are being complained about here. Locking down too late, lack of PPE, not protecting care homes, people ignoring the rules, people having illegal gatherings... my IL’s in Spain are currently incandescent with rage at all the people from Madrid who have flocked down to their second homes on the coast (where il’s live) against government rules and are ignoring social distancing on beaches and in restaurants, refusing to wear masks etc.
Funny that... we’re not as special as we like to think we are.

@amicissimma

The thing is, Hooves, you, just like everyone else, have to do your own risk assessment. The rules are going, being replaced with guidelines of how to behave in various situations as appropriate. (Ie as deemed appropriate by each person in the situation.) No one else can tell you what you should do because each person is coming from a different situation and has a different attitude to risk/sickness/death.

You have to assess whether you prefer to go out into the world, aware that Covid-19 is around, just as all sorts of other diseases that can make you ill, specially if you have underlying conditions, are around as they were this time last year. Covid isn't unique, it's just one more.

Or you can choose to hide away, asking other people to take the risk that you find unacceptable to keep you provided with the goods and services you require in your life. You can stay away from your family. You can stay away from work and hope that someone will provide you with financial support.

You can also choose to take some middle path, maybe mostly staying in but going out for things you really, really want.

If you go out at all you will encounter people who are making different decisions. Each of us decides what works in our circumstances. You have to bear that in mind when making your own decisions.

But it's your choice. Just as how everyone else perceives and responds to the risk is theirs. Nobody is telling you how to live and you don't have the right to tell anyone else. You can ask if people will bear your issues in mind, but they may feel that their needs over-ride yours just as you may feel yours over-ride theirs.

But you are missing the.point.

I can assess the risk based on what should be happening.

My dh assesses the risk based on what should be happening. When a customer books a call his company ask them to agree to certain conditions - that no one in the house currently has it or has been told to self isolate, that areas he's going into have been cleaned and so on. That's the assessed risk that he's accepting. If people lie though because they consider their want to get the job done to be more important than someone else's health how do you assess that?

When I'm.back at work I can take all possible steps to prevent me from catching it - wash my hands, not touch my face but I can't stop customers from getting too close, or f on coughing on me.

I think it's easy to be so blasé about this when it isn't you or a family member who is at high risk. When it wasn't you who get a shielding letter with the stark wording. I am, contrary to MN belief, not about to die. I am 50 with a normal life expectancy. I'm not ready to make my peace with dying so, no, this isn't about me just thinking "fuck it. Let's enjoy myself". I want to be around to see my kids get married, have families, have careers. I want to.outlive my parents. I'm not blasé about my health because I've spent years fighting to get to this point. I'm not about to gamble it all on whether some doofus that I happen to bump.into or my dh has to visit has decided that lockdown doesn't apply to him.

So hooves what do you want? Full lockdown for 18 months with furlough money from outer space?

Well then as you can’t control other people’s behaviour, you’re going to have to assess your risk based on the fact that some people aren’t following the rules.
However visiting non essential shops and going to pubs (when they open) is entirely within the rules.

I'm fascinated by the sea change from "my neighbour saw someone she knows through a window, should I report her to the police for breaking lockdown rules" to the "U CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO". Understand completely the need to work to keep the economy going, and the desire for your children to go to school (althoughbut - the beach crammed in with 182749282 other families? Clothes shopping? The pub? Going out for a meal
? Barbecues with your mates? No thanks

Drivingdownthe101

I agree about the lack of PPE and locking down too late for sure as happened in UK too remember?

But In Europe the beaches are monitored for crowds and segmented and closed if numbers rise.

There is not a huge rush back to bars and restaurants either just yet, but that may change over time.

Most EU countries had much more severe lockdowns than UK ever did if you remember those poor unfortunates stuck in their apartments for months on end.

Anyway, it will all get back to some kind of normality, but only if people are willing to observe social distancing and wear masks. What do you think?

I can assess the risk based on what should be happening

Which is, to be frank, incredibly stupid.

Nobody should drink and drive. But many do, and I have to assess my risk when crossing the road on a Saturday night.

Nobody should steal other people's property. But sometimes they do, so I don't leave my wallet hanging out of my handbag on a crowded train.

And so on. If we all assessed our risk according to what people 'should' do then life would be much easier. But that's now how life is.

The chances of catching Covid in the community now are tiny. If that's still too big a risk for you to take, then nobody here can help you with that.

@Teateaandmoretea

So hooves what do you want? Full lockdown for 18 months with furlough money from outer space?

Why do you have to be so ridiculous with this hyperbole? I've already said what I want - for people to stick to the rules and guidelines that government have set. That's all.

You're telling me that it's fine for people to break the rules and it's up to me to decide whether I want to accept the risks or not.

So, if I choose to drive at 100 mike's an hour on an empty motorway in the middle of the night, because I think it's fine and that 70 mph is stupid on an empty road, is that ok? Is it for other motorists to consider that there might be idiots speeding before deciding whether to risk driving at night?

I'd say that's not ok. That we all know the rules and that we have an expectation that everyone will follow them and that it's the rule breakers who are in the wrong and who shouldn't be welcome on the roads, not the rule followers.

There is not a huge rush back to bars and restaurants either just yet, but that may change over time

There certainly is where my IL’s live. They’re fuming about it.
And my friend who runs a bar in France is completely rammed, having to turn people away at the door.
But that’s just anecdotes. I’ve lived in all three countries and all friends and family there are reporting similar scenarios, but that could just be the areas they live in.

Everyone I know personally is observing social distancing. Most wearing masks in shops. Maybe I live in a compliant area, who knows.

What do you do for a living OP?

Why do you have to be so ridiculous with this hyperbole? I've already said what I want - for people to stick to the rules and guidelines that government have set. That's all

No. You whined about all those baddies going " to the shop, pub, beach on holiday."

You're telling me that it's fine for people to break the rules and it's up to me to decide whether I want to accept the risks or not

No. I didn’t say it’s fine for them to break the rules. I said some people will break the rules, and you can’t control other people’s behaviour. Unless you have any ideas as to how to stop them breaking the rules? No point asking the police to enforce them, they’ve already said they won’t be.
Yes I do consider the fact that people will drive irresponsibly when I go on the roads, it would be silly not to. Especially as my brother was killed when he was driven off the road by a drink driver when he was 27. I am hyper vigilant to it. It doesn’t stop me driving though, because that’s the personal risk assessment that I have carried out.

Everybody does drive/travel though, even though we all know some people break the speed limits.

You're telling me that it's fine for people to break the rules and it's up to me to decide whether I want to accept the risks or not.

No I haven’t. I’ve said that people are allowed to go shopping and to the beach. You clearly don’t agree with the actual rules and instead are making up your own based on what you personally want/ think others should do.

@IcedPurple

I can assess the risk based on what should be happening

Which is, to be frank, incredibly stupid.

Nobody should drink and drive. But many do, and I have to assess my risk when crossing the road on a Saturday night.

Nobody should steal other people's property. But sometimes they do, so I don't leave my wallet hanging out of my handbag on a crowded train.

And so on. If we all assessed our risk according to what people 'should' do then life would be much easier. But that's now how life is.

The chances of catching Covid in the community now are tiny. If that's still too big a risk for you to take, then nobody here can help you with that.

Well, ONS estimates cases to be 1:1100 in the community, so not hospitals or nursing homes

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveypilot/latest

I think people should calculate the risk of their actions. Providing they don’t intentionally put others at risk each to their own.

I'd say that's not ok. That we all know the rules and that we have an expectation that everyone will follow them and that it's the rule breakers who are in the wrong and who shouldn't be welcome on the roads, not the rule followers

There are rules against unauthorised entry into someone's home.

The vast majority of people respect those rules. But a few don't. That's why almost everyone locks their doors when they go out. Because they know that realistically you cannot have an expectation that everyone will follow the rules.

Presumably you don't bother locking your door however?

Well, ONS estimates cases to be 1:1100 in the community, so not hospitals or nursing homes

Are you seriously saying that you do not consider a less than 1 in 1000 chance of catching Covid to be a tiny risk? Do you apply the same assessment to the myriad of other risks we all face every single day? Or just this?

@Teateaandmoretea

You're telling me that it's fine for people to break the rules and it's up to me to decide whether I want to accept the risks or not.

No I haven’t. I’ve said that people are allowed to go shopping and to the beach. You clearly don’t agree with the actual rules and instead are making up your own based on what you personally want/ think others should do.

But people aren't allowed to crowd together and are meant to be 2 metres away from those outside of their households. So those people on the beaches weren't abiding by the rules.

When the pubs open people can go if they follow the rules. They can't all just pile in and squash up together. So it's not just whether the activity is allowed it's whether you are following the rules around that activity. Clearly these people weren't.

I wish there wasn't a name change function on here because I'll be interested to see how views change over the next couple of months.

[quote SoloMummy]@Lua
Yanbu and I bet that not one of the posters who says you are has been directly affected by covid nor is high risk.

Until they are directly impacted their selfishness will continue and it will be us that haven't that suffer for their utter selfishness.[/quote]
Well @solomummy depends what you mean by affected doesn't it? Yes, I've not lost a loved one to covid but today a friend of mine has been given a worrying diagnosis of her delayed smear that has now revealed cancerous cells, on a smear test that is 3 months later than it should be and 2 other friends have been given redundancy notices this week but obvs they don't count as it's covid or nothing? So actually I do consider my loved ones affected by this current situation because, news flash, it is not covid or nothing.

The thing about bars in Southern Europe where the most strict lockdowns happened, is that most of them can open with outdoor seating.

Many of us know that the most pleasant aspect of eating and drinking in such countries is the ability to sit outdoors and people watch. And the virus apparently does not move much outdoors either.

I don't know how Northern European countries are coping, someone might know wrt outdoor seating, but no matter where I went in Europe, even for the Christmas Markets in deepest cold etc, there was ALWAYS an opportunity to sit outdoors with heaters, blankets and so on to people watch, was great.

Not so much here. Large gatherings indoors do not fill me with confidence anymore.