people, please, stay home if you can

[Lua]

Most places that have eased lockdown measures, are seeing an increase in the number of cases. So there is no way around it (at least in the short-term), live a "normal life" and increase the risk for everyone (there are no "personal risk" in a pandemic).

I see a lot of people in mumsnet saying that we suffer too much to save the lives of 80 year olds. While I find this cold assessment horrible on its own, there are so many case of under 60s suffering badly. This is a harrowing picture of 63 year old woman:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/25/from-cold-to-coma-to-homecoming-one-womans-100-days-of-coronavirus

Sure, the risk is low. Sure, we deal with risks all the time. But we also try to mitigate risks all the time. We use seat belts, and we look before we cross the road, we use helmets, etc There are many reasons why someone needs to go into work, and those are understandable. But do people "need" to go to raves, beaches, cinemas? do we really need to go into shops and buy a new summer outfit?

Life needs to be different, and we need to find new ways to make our economy tick. Lots of opportunities in new fields. Lets support each other and look for new ways to make the world go around.

I think that comparing countries has been unhelpful. Comparing say New York with Berlin and London makes sense but our country has a different population makeup (more BAME people) and more overweight people so you'd expect more deaths than a sparsely populated Scandinavian country. Even comparing Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland with England is hard as there's so many factors to adjust for.

The outbreaks in China and Germany are local and the scientists have always said that we'll probably have the same so we know that local lockdowns are a distinct possibility. All we can do is wash our hands and cross our fingers.

@Devlesko

Children don't even need schools for education anyway, otherwise so many parents wouldn't choose to h.ed and school would be compulsory. Children's education is compulsory. Schools are great for childcare and general education, but not necessary if people's lives are at risk.

People who full time home Ed don’t do it in a vacuum sitting at home all day. They might not have their children in schools but it’s a sociable and active lifestyle for most of them. It’s absolutely nothing like what most people are having to do right now. The home edders I know are just as pissed off as everyone else at their groups and classes being cancelled and their children not seeing their friends.

That may be ok for you @Devlesko with no ambition to get a decent job, or even one that earns enough to pay tax, most of us want better for our kids. Your posts on economic matters would tend to suggest you might have done better with more education yourself.

Home Ed is a valid choice but equally so is school education. Education is every bit as important as healthcare in society.

Lua - you have hoisted yourself with your own petard by admitting that you are RETIRED.

And as for saying that students like online learning instead of attending university... I’ll just canvas my ds on that one...

YOU sound equally as selfish as those crowding onto Bournemouth beach.

@Clutterbugsmum

Children do not need education at the expense of the health of those who work in schools. What fucking planet are you on. We have to learn to live along side this virus and the others which will come along in the future. You can hide away for ever if you want too, but in the real world children have to have a proper in school education. Adults have to go to work so they can feed and house their families, not to mention to pay tax so we can repay the billions the government has borrowed so far.

If you really think the NHS will be able to function if no one has a education to train as nurses and doctors.

As much as I feel sorry for those families that have lost some one to Covid, I also feel sorry for those families who lost family members because the NHS is doing nothing for anyone who hasn't got Covid. These are the hidden victims that no one is talking about.

What fucking planet are you on.

Exactly what I've come to expect from the selfish types on here. As is pretending I said something I didn't.

Of course children have to go back to school. Nowhere did I say they didn't. I did say it has to be as safe as possible for the children and the staff. Do you disagree with that? Not sure why you would.

If it means part time education then that's what will have to happen, rather than put at risk the health of children and staff.

Nowhere did I say people shouldn't go back to work. I wonder why you felt you had to pretend I said things I didn't.

Just a word of caution to those saying spend spend spend for the good of the economy.

We are going to have a recession. We are going to have mass unemployment.

It might be an idea to save some cash for a rainy day. There is a storm coming, we just don't know how bad yet.

t is scary to see how little people understand what is going on. Germany is already considering going back into lockdown. China has to go back. Things are getting worst in the USA. Why do people think is going to be different here?

Germany - local lockdown
China - local lockdown in Beijing
USA - very different beast to here. In effect each state is like its own separate country. New York is like the UK coming out of it - others are going in. Looking at it as a whole and comparing it to us isnt helpful.

Lockdown was designed to suppress it - it has we now need to start letting go a little bit.

@TibetanTerrier I have spoken to my 96 year old Nan and she said the heart of the keep calm and carry on was a sense of it in together. A camaraderie and a joining in together. Very different from this when she was stuck in her retirement flat completely on her own.

And that is the difference - we are all in this together but kept completely apart. And it is that isolation that causes it. And being scared of everyone.

you say this
There is a marked lack of substance in someone who finds that too much to handle.
but you do realise that solitary confinement is a form of torture dont you. As is been kept indoors without fresh air for a long period of time. Not everyone has found themselves in comfortable surroundings in this.

Current estimates is 1 in 7000 people have the virus. Seems pretty low, but think about if your kid goes to a large high school(2000 kids going through 20 bathrroms in one day), what are the chances when they go visit grandad, they will challenge their life?

If this level persists then they are going to have to test people at random (probably teachers as they seem more likely to catch it) to identify potential school outbreaks.

'Staying home' is neither an option long term or any kind of life worth living.

Yabu OP and you need to start seeing the bigger picture. No one wants a second wave, but this virus is going nowhere so we're going to have to learn to accept that.

Children don't even need schools for education anyway, otherwise so many parents wouldn't choose to h.ed and school would be compulsory

Surely you can't believe that not everyone is in a position to be able to home ed indefinitely though?!
I'm fortunate enough to be a SAHM during this so can home school easily - what about those at work though, what are they supposed to do?
Children need an education. Sometimes parents aren't in a position to give it - home schooling isn't an option for everyone.

@Devlesko

Children don't even need schools for education anyway, otherwise so many parents wouldn't choose to h.ed and school would be compulsory. Children's education is compulsory. Schools are great for childcare and general education, but not necessary if people's lives are at risk.

Do you think children developing social skills and having friends is optional too?

I'm shit sick of the idea that people who want to come out of lockdown are 'selfish.'

To me there is nothing more selfish than saying 'I'm afraid of a virus so everybody has to set their whole lives on fire to protect me. It doesn't matter if there's very very little chance of the virus killing me, I still expect children to miss out on education, for millions of people to lose their jobs, for healthcare and education to be starved of funds for years to come and for other people to die of other diseases because they can't get the treatment they need. I expect people to be depressed and miserable and to miss out on everything good life has to offer because I cannot for one second be put in any danger from this one risk. I don't care about all of the hundreds of other risks out there that are being made worse by lockdown, that doesn't matter, all that matters is ME and MY FAMILY.' Incredibly and unbelievably selfish.

Covid is not the only thing that matters. Your ability to avoid covid is not the only thing that matters.

I'm sick to death of people moaning about their mental health and being unable to cope with just staying in their own homes, not in any danger, and with all the luxuries of modern life around them to occupy themselves. There is a marked lack of substance in someone who finds that too much to handle. If being asked to do nothing in comfort is too much for them, what the hell would this country be like if these people were asked to do something difficult and dangerous?!

Very different things. I've found lockdown very hard for a couple of reasons to the point I almost got sectioned in May (yay for understanding psychiatrists) but I've done a variety of things most people would consider dangerous without a qualm.

Completely agree. There is an outbreak in our city, numerous clusters cropping up. One the senior medical staff in our local hospital is on a ventilator. This nightmare is far from over.

And that is the difference - we are all in this together but kept completely apart. And it is that isolation that causes it. And being scared of everyone.

But we aren't in it together. There are people all over social media accusing everyone of being selfish whatever their viewpoint. I'm afraid it's every person for themselves here.

No, things need to get back to normal now.

the generation that went through the Blitz went through something horrific, and they gritted their teeth, "kept calm and carried on" so to speak.

Do you know much about what that generation went through? Plenty of them ended up with what we'd now call PTSD. Plenty of people refused to go into shelters when the sirens sounded because they had an "if it's my time, it's my time" attitude. Plenty of them were what you'd call 'moaning', questioning and criticising the government, talking to each other about how shit it all was. Plenty of people were out flogging things on the black market when others were queuing for rations!

The idea that Britain just went "tally-ho! Blitz spirit! Let's all get digging vegetables!" and Got On With It without any complaints or anyone breaking any rules is not what happened. People are more complicated than that. Why do you think the government even thought about doing a "Keep Calm and Carry On" poster campaign if everyone already was keeping calm and carrying on?

Thank you LyingWitchInTheWardrobe.

I'm sorry if I sound bossy. I didn't mean to. My expertise is significantly close to the matter of hand, and I just want to plead with people to be much more careful than government regulations.... There is politics and other interests involved on that.

More importantly, I really have trouble understanding that people don't see this as a public matter. Any epidemiological problem depends on a group action. Is like the problems with the vaccines. Personal choices will affect everyone else, so is not about saying I am an adult and I can make decisions for myself.

When you are willing to be a carrier, you are affecting thousands of people's life, not just yours.

Absolutely, TheDailyCarbuncle.

I was on the shielding threads and nearly combusted as I couldn’t believe the number of utterly selfish arseholes there were on there.

You are not being unreasonable.

"Children don't even need schools for education anyway, otherwise so many parents wouldn't choose to h.ed and school would be compulsory.
Children's education is compulsory.
Schools are great for childcare and general education, but not necessary if people's lives are at risk".

Wow!!! You win a prize for the most stupid comment on mumsnet.

Not a chance I m done with existing and we will be out doing all of the things we love. These last three months have been long enough staying home is not normal for us. Anyone who wants to stay in lockdown misery can crack on but for us it’s back to the things we love.

TibetanTerrier I'm sick of ignorant people like you making light of mental health issues. They can kill people and leave them a shell of their former selves. Often you can't see the damage until it's too late. People like you who think that they're a fucking joke do untold harm to people.People like myself. People still die because of the stigma around it and idiots who refuse to take it seriously. Everyone thought that my Friend's husband was perfectly normal and content until the day he took the dog for a walk and hanged himself from a tree. Likewise my Uncle who hanged himself from the loft.

I worked with an organisation that helps people with various issues including debt, domestic violence and mental health issues. It amazed me who came through that door. People I'd seen and known for years who seemed to have it together but who were really falling apart at the seams. It's not a fucking joke.

Also I'm so bloody sick of the romanticising about the bloody War. It caused major trauma to people. It often went unrecognised at the time but that didn't mean that it didn't exist. A lot of other terrible things were brushed over back then but the harm was still caused. I worked with a 90 year old woman who was still traumatised by the loss of her stillborn son. Because of the stiff upper lip attitude, she wasn't allowed to hold him or given any time to grieve. All those decades later that still haunted her because she wasn't given a chance to hold him.

www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/world-war-ones-forgotten-female-shell-shock-victims/378995/ Reading for anyone who thinks that everyone just brushed off the effects of both World Wars.

As for "just" being asked to stay at home, I spent the best part of 2 years being unable to go out without a "safe" person. Even then I struggled. I almost beat that with the help of a therapy programme I just started. That therapy programme involves me going out regularly in busy public places and seeing my support worker and therapist regularly. Lockdown totally fucked all of that up for me and now I'm terrified that I'm going to find myself unable to get beyond my front door again for who knows how long so yes. i will be going out regularly, while observing safety measures, because I'm not going through those hellish two years again that almost cost me my life and definitely cost my sanity.

Lua - you enjoy your retirement and stay in forever if you want to.

Some of us need to earn a crust and have our children educated.

I wonder if you would hold the same point of view if you were 21 and informed you should remain indoors for ten years?

Teateaandmoretea - "Yabu OP ... this virus is going nowhere so we're going to have to learn to accept that."

That is exactly what I am advocating. accepting and adapting. Not going back to the same way we have been living for the past 20 year.

Find this thread to be a complete paradox of the other trending thread about Bournemouth beach.