This is what I would do with schools

[ineedsomemoremetime]

So this is what I would do with primary schools. 1) Open schools to all children. 2) each classroom is their own bubble. The social distancing cannot happen in that classroom. 3) Teachers / TAs /all staff under 45 without underlying health conditions to return to work within these bubbles 4) those over 45 and/or with underlying health conditions support remote learning for those families who (due to vulnerable family members or child) cannot return their children to school 5) Government recruits teachers/TAs/ locum teachers who have previously left or trainee teachers to temporarily fill the gaps of those vulnerable staff members.

Is this a feasible plan? To me it seems a practical solution. Why aren't we considering something akin to this?

At the moment there is such variation in what parents want. In affluent areas, families have been less badly affected by Covid, as they have probably had better health and the kind of jobs where you can be furloughed it work from home. They have not had to worry about housing or food. They want their children to come back to school.

In deprived areas such as where my school is, families have had a much worse time and do not want to send their children back. We have less than 80 children coming back out of a school of 400.

Until parents are made to send children back there can be no one solution for schools as they are all so different.

@Grasspigeons

SallyLovesCheese - i think schools will have 1 or 2 half days to pupils allow for PPA and with social distancing down to 1m there will be room.

I've heard that some schools do this already to save on costs.

Makes me wonder which parts of the curriculum the children won't get.

Surely not - it's protected if you're under the Burgundy Book. Although some academies may try it on, I suppose.

One of the purposes of academies is to subvert the burgundy book...

Literally no one wants to teach atm. The "volunteer army" will never happen because no-one wants to volunteer to look after other peoples children for free. Teachers have had so much abuse I would be surprised if any give up their summer holidays to provide childcare for anyone. Playschemes will be governed by the same rules as schools and "playworkers" will probably have their own children to look after as people don't take such poorly paid jobs unless they absolutely have to. We have undervalued the people that look after our children.

Its going to be rubbish! Not looking forward to next year when its normal/not normal

I've mixed feelings about how successful a recruitment drive would be .
As an ex teacher a class of 15 would be the one thing I'd find appealing.
But with things being so chaotic and uncertain in schools and there will be so much added pressure for kids to catch up it's a hard sell recruitment wise.
I have heard of a few primary jobs recently having loads of applicants though and with a lot of jobs being vulnerable now ex teachers might consider it

@ItsSummer

Surely not - it's protected if you're under the Burgundy Book. Although some academies may try it on, I suppose.

One of the purposes of academies is to subvert the burgundy book...

Some follow it, though. The last one I taught at did.

There are a lot of teachers and TAs over the age of 45. Keeping the bubbles separate from each other would be difficult and there would be little to no time to clean surfaces between each bubble of 30 using toilets, leaving their classroom for any reason etc; and staggered break times, arrival times, and departure times would eat into the day substantially, as would regular handwashing for 30 children at a time. Parents turning up late for their child’s drop off/pick up would mean losing the integrity of that bubble, particularly with limited separate entrances and exits to the school to keep families apart etc, etc. Would staff over the age of 45 still get paid, even if there are too many of them to stay at home to cater for the children who are most vulnerable? Or would they be sacked and replaced by cheap, unqualified teachers? Somehow, I think they would be required to work, regardless of risk. If staff are unwell, will supply teachers be allowed to go around multiple schools, contaminating the bubbles, or will whole classes have to stay at home? More people would also need to be employed as cleaners, on site all day - more than the increased amount already required just to cope with a few extra children coming in at the moment, rather than the old model of schools being filthy and disgusting all day, with toilets increasingly revolting and then not enough cleaning hours paid for to get the school clean again for the next day.

I think we basically need more building space aswell as more teachers... and it will be very expensive to enable all primary children to go back to school full time based on current scientific advice on avoiding spreading coronavirus, and that’s without even considering how to reopen secondary schools where nobody is arguing that children over the age of 10 are unlikely to be spreading covid 19 in the first place - that research relates to under 10s.

Surely most heads are over 45 as well who need to be on site ?

I love your idea OP! But I think it's the drop offs and pick ups that will.mean it won't work

Well, Walkaround, I guess the teachers and TAs will just be spending some of their day cleaning the toilets.

Hope we're allowed PPE for that.

Thank you @namechange. It just frustrates me that we aren't seeing any of this debate. Is it happening within government or are we to accept 'blended learning' in the future and the associate catastrophic affect this will have on many of our livelihoods? I'm finding it so frustrating. We need to be having these debates.

So, not portacabins but some portaloos to supplement toilets? Increase the 45 limit to say 48? Or, supply older staff say 45-55 with appropriate PPE and have these older staff teach the Y5/Y6 classes where phonics etc aren't so relevant? Ditto over 45 head teachers, PPE plus a ventilated office? I don't know but I feel there are options out there.how about video link in the vulnerable staff teachers to teach set lessons with TA/trainee teacher support?

And yes, I'm not a teacher. But I'm trying to think alternatively.

SallyLovesCheese - the over 45 year old teachers could retrain as school cleaners...
In all seriousness, it was the teachers doing all the cleaning in a lot of schools when they only had keyworker children coming in. Teachers can’t do that any more, because they are all too busy teaching and making sure their bubbles don’t make contact with other bubbles...

I do appreciate the fact that the OP is concerned for the welfare of staff.

Staff over 45 without underlying health conditions will just be working as normal.

I think the premise of a debate is fine but often it's the tone of it that is the issue.

Also many people are so ignorant that its clear they have no idea about schools or the recent issues theyve faced and continue to face especially when they start talking about money.

Suddenly though everyone has a cracking idea we should all be trying, as if school leaders haven't already considered them. It's also a little tedious and condescending listening to it all repeatedly. I wouldn't just randomly turn up to someone else's workplace and start suggesting what they need to do, but since someone has a child they somehow feel that qualifies them to comment on schools.

I understand parent frustration and am fine debating (although in all seriousness you're wasting your time on MM trying to have sensible discussion) but it's the government we should be debating with, not each other and or the actual schools.

Haven't read the whole thread, but just wanted to say that there could be other flexible options wrt space. For example, one option could be having an early and a late shift at school. Romanian primary schools do this, with the early shift in school from 7.30am - lunchtime, and the later shift from lunchtime - 7.30pm. I know, I know, someone is going to come and and say it's not possible due to cleaning, but I'm just giving ideas.

Another option for secondary kids could be a hybrid in person and online class with half the kids there in person and the other half watching at home. Then swap the next week. The difficulty might be ok the tech side of things, but again just another suggestion.

In terms of the social distancing in primary schools, my bet is that the government would be happy for all primary children to be back in classes of 30 right now, as they don't believe that they spread it. However, there is a problem with public compliance with social distancing rules if we see schools operating like this, and that is what would cause a second peak.

I sort of assume this is what will happen in September. Although it still won't work well in secondary schools (specialist subject teachers). Unfortunately I think recruitment would be a problem unless you're prepared to have extremely low standards, because you'd only be offering short-term contracts with no job security and some level of risk.

Unfortunately retired teachers probably wouldn't be a source - they'd either be too old for it to be a reasonable risk, or have left teaching for a reason and found another job - why would they come back?

I do agree that social distancing will have to be hugely relaxed/abandoned before schools will be able to reopen. We just can't suddenly triple our space/staffing capacity to maintain bubbles of under 15 if all year groups are in.

Oh, OP, we'd love some debates with the government about how opening fully could be done. Unfortunately, though, they seem hellbent on just doing what they think without even asking those of us who work in schools.

Or, they just tell headteachers on the Thursday before - "Oh, by the way, you can have bubbles of 30 from Monday". And leaving schools, headteachers and teachers to bear the brunt when they can't do it to everyone's satisfaction.

@MoreW1ne yes. But I don't see much government debate going on. What about us working parents who seem to have been left hung out to dry. If we can get a constructive debate going here is that not useful? Will that not eventually reach the government that way?

Yes, they could do this 100% for primary school. Other options: have outdoor teaching in the playground, use a nearby church hall.

Secondary is more complicated because of different groups for different subjects.

@C33P0

Haven't read the whole thread, but just wanted to say that there could be other flexible options wrt space. For example, one option could be having an early and a late shift at school. Romanian primary schools do this, with the early shift in school from 7.30am - lunchtime, and the later shift from lunchtime - 7.30pm. I know, I know, someone is going to come and and say it's not possible due to cleaning, but I'm just giving ideas.

Another option for secondary kids could be a hybrid in person and online class with half the kids there in person and the other half watching at home. Then swap the next week. The difficulty might be ok the tech side of things, but again just another suggestion.

In terms of the social distancing in primary schools, my bet is that the government would be happy for all primary children to be back in classes of 30 right now, as they don't believe that they spread it. However, there is a problem with public compliance with social distancing rules if we see schools operating like this, and that is what would cause a second peak.

Wow, you're going to have to clarify part of this for me!

In Romania, they have 12-hour school opening. Okay, so tell me what happens with regards to the staff - two separate staff, one for morning, one for afternoon? Genuinely need to know!

What we need is for it to be safe to go back to normal! School’s less fun if you can no longer do the school plays, groups sports, etc. And practical subjects (eg DT, some aspects of the science and geography curriculum, music, dance, PE, etc) suffer hugely from being taught at a distance, without access to specialist equipment and close physical contact/instruction. Anything we do to try to get kids back in school but still keeping everyone safe will be relatively inadequate.

@FiveFootTwoEyesOfBlue

Yes, they could do this 100% for primary school. Other options: have outdoor teaching in the playground, use a nearby church hall.

Secondary is more complicated because of different groups for different subjects.

Of course, outdoor teaching is subject to the weather and I'm not sure any child (or adult!) would want to be outside all day. They can't go and swap classrooms with another bubble, so what if it rains? Or is windy? or the other classes want to come outside for playtime?

And unfortunately, not all schools have an appropriate number of nearby buildings with space appropriate for teaching. If the government said this should happen, you'll have some schools who get enough spaces and many who don't.

Another thing about vulnerable teachers, is that it is possible to have them social distance from the children, without having the children social distancing from each other. Another option could be teachers to not wear masks of they are standing at the from talking to the class, but to wear a mask if they need to move any closer e.g. to help a particular child with their work.