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Daily numbers, graphs, analysis thread 10

966 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 08/06/2020 19:35

Welcome to thread 10 of the daily updates.

Resource links:

Worldometer UK page
Financial Times Daily updates and graphs
HSJ Coronavirus updates
Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Centre
NHS England stats, including breakdown by Hospital Trust
Covidly.com to filter graphs using selected data filters
ONS statistics for CV related deaths outside hospitals, released weekly each Tuesday

We welcome factual, data driven, and civil discussions from all contributors 💐

OP posts:
Thread gallery
90
OP posts:
sleepwhenidie · 21/06/2020 23:06

Thanks BigChoc will have to look when I have computer, my phone is struggling with the download!

BigChocFrenzy · 22/06/2020 11:13

My ipad was even struggling to post it !

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/06/2020 11:24

It's now been 5 ½ weeks since gyms opened here (16 May)

So far no outbreaks at gyms, which is somewhat surprising considering all the church outbreaks here

We pant, gasp, exhale far more than we would singing
and in a class we're in a confined space for 60 mins

Most gyms I know have a sizeable number of older gym rats like me,
but hardly any aged 80+ so that's a clear difference

However, I'd have expected enough cases for a few outbreaks, even though death rate would probably be much lower than CFR,
especially as we are presumably fitter than average for our ages.

Slaughterhouses etc would infect those of working age directly - working 40 hours weekly - and have had several outbreaks with a high number of cases per outbreak

OP posts:
whenwillthemadnessend · 22/06/2020 13:02

Great news re gyms. I'm desperate for the swimming pool to reopen.

ShootsFruitAndLeaves · 22/06/2020 13:47

Study of over 2M participants in Uk and USA to investigate racial and ethnic determinants of Covid 19 risk.
www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.18.20134742v1

Found that even after adjusting for other risk factors including co-morbities and sociodemographic factors still significant disparities.

Hoping that this might count as sufficiently‘robust’ research for the Katie Hopkins type statistical manipulators on this thread.

It would be good if you would engage in good faith rather than with ad hominems.

As I said in my last post we do know that ethnic minorities in the UK are much more likely to have been infected and that this will straightforwardly lead to higher death rates.

And as I said, no study is going to counter the overwhelming fact that sex and age are by the far most important factors in death risk.

What I have said is that nobody has provided robust evidence showing an inherent ethnic link to covid-19 mortality. That remains true after your post, of which the 2M participants is not particularly important in that vast samples aren't necessarily better than smaller ones. Sampling is more important.

You haven't provided a specific finding from the link you provided, but thanks for providing the link

Anyway, I read the first paragraph and it was exactly what I said in my next-to-last 2 posts

"We used a smartphone application (beginning March 24, 2020 in the United Kingdom [U.K.] and March 29, 2020 in the United States [U.S.]) to recruit 2,414,601 participants who reported their race/ethnicity through May 25, 2020 and employed logistic regression to determine the adjusted odds ratios (aORs) and 95% confidence intervals (CIs) for a positive Covid-19 test among racial and ethnic groups"

so this is not random sampling. Rather, it is the Zoe app, which people download and it records data and suggests you might have covid-19. This non-representative sample is not necessarily a problem, but we should understand what has been tested.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID_Symptom_Study

"Compared with non-Hispanic white participants, the risk for a positive Covid-19 test was increased across racial minorities (aORs ranging from 1.24 to 3.51). After adjustment for socioeconomic indices and Covid-19 exposure risk factors, the associations (aOR [95% CI]) were attenuated but remained significant for Hispanic Hispanic (1.58 [1.24-2.02]) and Black participants (2.56 [1.93-3.39]) in the U.S. and South Asian (1.52 [1.38-1.67]) and Middle Eastern participants (1.56 [1.25-1.95]) in the U.K"

So, the app found that South Asian and Middle Eastern participants in the UK were about 50% more likely to have caught covid-19.

And as per the link in my previous post there is no correlation between catching covid-19 and Vitamin D levels.

And as I said in my previous post we know ethnic minorities are more likely to have caught covid-19.

And it's reasonable to assume that different ethnic groups spread covid-19 in different ways - there was much speculation and stereotyping on here about Italians being tactile and familial and Germans being more reserved and this being a factor in spread.

We also know that British Jews have the highest death rate of all races or religions. We know Christian and Islamic gatherings have caused thousands of infections for singl emeetings.

So when we have a statistical fact that we have no reason to doubt, namely that UK South Asians are more likely to be infected with covid-19 than is predicted by their circumstances, what do we conclude? That there's something inherent to South Asian biology that makes them more likely to catch covid-19? Or the blindingly obvious fact that South Asian people will have different social, religious, etc. practices from other races.

So please actually READ even the precis of the study before asserting that it proves someone else is a Nazi.

If we continue to the actual full text of the study, it says

"However, after adjustment, the risk of a positive Covid-19 test remained significant for several racial and ethnic minorities, which is likely due to additional contributing factors for which we were unable to account, including insurance coverage, access to healthcare, use of public transit, and other essential occupations not specifically queried. sian and Hispanic populations are also more likely than non-Hispanic whites to live in multigenerational households, and, like Black populations, are more likely to live in densely populated urban areas."

In other words they aren't asserting for one moment anything different from what I have been saying, namely that ethnic minorities are more likely to have been infected and that they haven't even addressed many likely reasons for this.

In fact

"Additional covariates were selected a priori based on putative risk factors, including sex, body mass index, history of diabetes, heart, lung, or kidney disease, current smoking status, isolation, community interaction with individuals with Covid-19, frontline healthcare worker status, population density, income, and education"

so they had a priori assumptions about risk factors, some of which are not likely to be relevant, and some serious risk factors of which they missed.

I downloaded the app to check, and they ask

"Are you a healthcare worker (including hospital, elderly care, or in the community"

No/Yes I interact with patients/Yes I do not interact with patients

"Do you care for multiple people in the community, with direct contact with your patients"
No/Yes

And that's it.

They do not ask for income NOR occupation, but instead it is apparently implied from LSOA

A LSOA is 1500 people approximately and will be somewhat homogenous generally, but clearly in urban areas social housing and private housing are going to be in the same LSOA, and they don't have anyway of determining that.

I.e. if Joe White lives in a rented private flat and works in IT and is furloughed/working from home, while Michael Black lives in social housing in the same development and works in a meat plant, going to work every day, then this won't be identified at all by the app, since they don't ask about your occupation, and while they do ask the postcode (which might be different), this is only to identify a LSOA, which will be the same.

It's unfortunate that with such a large data pool they didn't ask people if they were going to work, and at what!

It turns out that the study doesn't even show that, say, ethnically South Asian factory workers are more likely to have caught covid-19 than white factory workers.

And asking about 'frontline healthcare' isn't that helpful in that we know in general that male 'care home workers' are more likely to have died from covid-19 than the general population, but that male 'doctors' have no such elevated risk. However the death risk doesn't distinguish between 'frontline' and 'non-frontline'.It'

If we scroll down to the data on page 25

www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.18.20134742v1.full.pdf

it turns out that the sample is massively biased, being 94.2% white, as against the latest estimates of 84.9% for the UK.

The sample also is massively biased against young people with disproportionately many people aged 35-64, and is mostly women.

Also people are fucking liars about their weight, with 53.3% of South Asians claiming to be underweight or normal weight, and 47.1% of white people.

Anyway, from their very large but really exceptionally shitty and unrepresentative sample, they found that black and South Asian people were more than twice as likely to have a positive test compared to white people. Here we should note that black people in their sample were more than 2.3x more likely to state 'frontline healthcare worker' status, and 1.8x for South Asian, than white people.

Here we should note that positive test results have long been misleading in that if you test more people you get more positive, and there's clearly bias in that people who are older/sicker/healthcare workers are far more likely to be tested.

They performed a

an "inverse probability weighting (IPW) as a function of race/ethnicity and other factors, such as age, symptom burden, COVID-19 exposure risk factors, and socioeconomic status, followed by inverse probability weighted logistic regression" [note that they don't know socioeconomic status, and can only extrapolate from LSOA and have nothing else to go on]

however this IPW is really quite shit - they ignore the fact that healthcare workers are much more likely to be tested because of their jobs, for example, and a positive test result tells you that someone was positive, but the lack of one doesn't say they are negative.

A more useful study would be to track people as part of a regular testing program, so that every user of the app would be tested weekly or whatever. As it is they know:

they had around 2.25 million people in the app
an undisclosed number had tests which were negative
8,335 white people and 1000 people not identifying as white had positive tests

Anyway, aside from their IPW, once they asked

In the last week how many times have you been outside your house with limited interaction with other people
In the last week how many times have you visited somewhere with lots of people (e.g work/for groceries/public transport/school)
In the last week how many times have you visited a healthcare setting including for work (hospital/clinic/dentist/pharmacy)

and took into account community exposure, frontline healthcare worker status, the excess risk fell from 117% to zero for black people, but remained at 52% for South Asians.

Overall the app is an exercise in massive data, where massive is as in 'massively unrepresentative'.

There will be all sorts of sources of bias beyond the obvious that there are too many women, too many white people, not enough young people. We can also consider that the very ill are unlikely to use the app, that those who get a negative test are less likely to report it, that there is likely to be a sex bias in terms of continuing use of the app (diligence).

I'm sure the app has some useful metrics, but these racial data are not among them.....

Piggywaspushed · 22/06/2020 13:49

Does anyone know when the Joint Biosecurity Centre is actually going to be up and running? Apparently they are investigating my area, but I thought it wasn't actually set up yet?

Reassuring to know there is a sense of urgency...

ShootsFruitAndLeaves · 22/06/2020 13:56

The tl;dr on that is that the ONS documented massively different covid mortality risks for people in different occupations weeks ago, they documented that different races are much more likely to work in certain occupations and yet the study/above fails to collect occupational data whatsoever even though both the UK and US have a Standard Occupational Classification; it fails to identify whether people are working in their normal place of work, and it has inherent massive bias as a self-selecting sample of app downloaders.

MarcelineMissouri · 22/06/2020 13:59

That’s good news about gyms @BigChocFrenzy.
How is the feeling in the ground about the various outbreaks that are being reported on? I’ve heard obviously of the meat processing factory, a tower block, churches, family parties?! It’s always hard to judge from the UK reporting which just makes it sound like outbreaks are everywhere and everyone in Germany will be dead soon....

ShootsFruitAndLeaves · 22/06/2020 14:15

Oh, and after adjusting for self-reported levels of risk/exposure it found no excess risk for black people, but found a risk for 'South Asian' and 'Middle Eastern' people, but didn't distinguish between Indian and Bangladeshi or Pakistani .

The racial classifications asked, in order:

Asian/Asian British: Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, other
Black
Mixed white and Black
Mixed other
White: British , Irish, Other
Chinese
Middle Eastern: Arab, Turkish, other
Other: specify

Not clear what a Japanese person would tick.

It's strange that they did such a shit job of asking people's ethnicity

www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/style-guide/ethnic-groups

Specifies 18 ethnicities:

White British
White Irish
White gypsy traveller
White other
Asian Indian
Asian Pakistani
Asian Bangladeshi
Asian Chinese
Asian other

Etc.

It's not quite clear why this app doesn't follow this. It's the sort of surveying error I'd expect from a GCSE student

They also don't ask about religious affiliation and/or worship

BigChocFrenzy · 22/06/2020 14:21

marceline Mood is calm but watchful
So far, outbreaks have all been locked down locally before infections can spread more sidely.

Slaughterhouses, meat plants etc are a clear problem wrt infetcions ramping up, but may not be reflected so much in deaths:
these are mostly immigrants of working age, who left their grannies behind in their home country

The management of the latest one in particular are deservedly getting their arses kicked hard by all parties though, for carelessness & stupidity
Call for reform of working practices - which will increase meat prices, but cheap meat is proving too expensive atm

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/06/2020 14:35

Study is obviously not representative of the population - nothing self-selecting and especially downloading an App will be

If half the group are not overweight, that in itself suggest not being representative, maybe too mc / health conscious - or a concerning tendency to tell porkies.

Obvious lack of age 80+ group where 85% or whatever of deaths occur

  • but this group is maybe not as interesting as those with much longer expected years of life: those of working age, or in the first decade of retirement

Occupation, housing type, postcode, income would be very useful for risks and outcomes

  • but the last of these in particular is something people might not wish to confide in an App

The study leaders don't want to ask so many questions that they put people off from participating, but useful would include
age, sex, height, weight, blood type, Y/n for significant health conditions like T1, T1, immune disorders, blood disorders etc
and any known values of BP, blood cholesterol, Vit D as well as more useful classifications for race

OP posts:
ShootsFruitAndLeaves · 22/06/2020 14:52

they ask postcode, but none of the others.

it's interesting that they don't bother to discuss the bias of their very large sample.

They say

"Furthermore, Asian and Hispanic populations represent a higher proportion of foreign-born individuals, which poses additional challenges associated with cultural and language barriers, misinformation, immigration-related fear, and anxiety related to accessing care."

which is great stuff but the people using an app for middle class worriers are probably not those with cultural and language barriers or here illegally!

ShootsFruitAndLeaves · 22/06/2020 15:01

Also the US study reports 'income', but this is from zip code, which averages 8000 people in population but places such as Corona, New York, have more than 100,000 people.

Delatron · 22/06/2020 15:07

It’s so frustrating that the media is calling local outbreaks ‘second waves’.
And then focusing on the R rate. When we know that infections are low the R rate is less meaningful.

Great news about gyms.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 22/06/2020 15:16

Number of U.K. infections and deaths continues to fall

AlecTrevelyan006 · 22/06/2020 15:16

mobile.twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1275060863716585474

Clavinova · 22/06/2020 15:26

we do know that ethnic minorities in the UK are much more likely to have been infected and that this will straightforwardly lead to higher death rates.

Very likely.

But also - British Heart Foundation;

"Your ethnic origin can increase your risk of heart and circulatory disease and diabetes. Dr Sandy Gupta, consultant cardiologist at Whipps Cross and Barts Health NHS Trust."

"We’ve known for more than 50 years that the risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) is up to 50 per cent higher in first-generation South Asians than in the white European population in the UK.The sad thing is, it’s still a problem, despite us knowing this for so long."

"It is partly to do with body shape and diabetes. South Asians mainly develop central obesity (fat around the middle). Extra fat, particularly on the middle, increases insulin resistance (meaning you must produce more insulin to stabilise blood sugar, among other processes) and therefore risk of developing type 2 diabetes. For this reason, the waist circumference indicating increased risk is lower for a South Asian person than a white European."

"South Asians are diagnosed with type 2 diabetes at a much younger age, and at higher rates (rates are at least twice as high in South Asian communities as in the general population). It’s often a silent condition, so a diagnosis may come years after onset, when blood glucose levels have been unstable for some time and have already caused harm to the body."

"Lifestyle factors may play a role, but part of it is genetic."

www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/medical/south-asian-background

There is a link between obesity and lower levels of vitamin D circulating in the body but not necessarily a link between lower levels of vitamin D and COVID-19;

2013 - "Researchers found that a 10 per cent rise in BMI was linked to a four per cent drop in concentrations of vitamin D in the body."

"The association between obesity and vitamin D status found here was consistent between genders, being apparent both in men and in women, and in younger and older age groups."

"Efforts to tackle obesity should thus also help to reduce levels of vitamin D deficiency in the population."

www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2013/feb/obesity-leads-vitamin-d-deficiency

journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1001383

hopefulhalf · 22/06/2020 16:18

I know it's sunday figures but 15 deaths and new cases below 1,000 is very heartening.

PumpkinPie2016 · 22/06/2020 16:24

hopeful good figures -did you mean Monday though?

Cases below 1000 is great.

Orangeblossom78 · 22/06/2020 16:38

Apologies if this has been covered already - did you see that in India it seemed more women than men has died, did not seem to have the same sex difference as shown in other countries. Any thought on this?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-53104634

hopefulhalf · 22/06/2020 16:45

Sunday figures reported on a monday IYSWIM

cathyandclare · 22/06/2020 16:45

Hopeful good figures -did you mean Monday though?

I think it's because Sunday figures are reported on a Monday, so they show a drop because there's less reporting on the weekend. There's usually a bit of a jump on a Tuesday as the figures catch up.

ShootsFruitAndLeaves · 22/06/2020 17:50

Hi, @orangeblossom78 I had a look at the study linked there.

It does not seem to be particularly high quality.

e-jghs.org/DOIx.php?id=10.35500/jghs.2020.2.e17

I'm not sure a 'Nike-swoosh pattern' is a very helpful or scientific term.

They are talking about CFR, not IFR.

It describes the data as 'crowdsourced'

This is not a very helpful term - this is in fact official data, it has merely been compiled into one source from these official sources

telegra.ph/Covid-19-Sources-03-19

The CFR given is 3.2%. I can't particularly be bothered to properly estimate it from India's population pyramid, but an IFR of 1% to 1.s.f, but below 1% for the UK is estimated, and while 5% of the UK's population is over 80, for India it is only 0.9%, for 70-79 it is 8.5% vs 2.8%.

So roughly speaking I'd expect an IFR of India of around 0.2%.

So it is implied (and not surprising) that about 95% of I's do not become C's.

Anyway, the BBC is (fairly typically) presenting a sensationalist, outright false headline

"Are more women dying of Covid-19 in India?"

The answer is no, most completely certainly and definitely not.

It concedes as much down the page

"New research by a group of scientists in India and US shows that although men make up the majority of infections, women face a higher risk of dying from the coronavirus than men."

However it does not explain

"that 3.3% of all women contracting the infection "

is not 'of all women contracting the infection', but merely those diagnosed with covid-19 (depending on how India counts this, and I can't be bothered to check, this could be any of: 1) rapid (antibody) test 2) RT-PCR, 3) clinical symptoms. But it is absolutely NOT "all women contracting the infection", and journalists need to learn to use accurate language when reporting this.

Also this looks like cherry-picking

"In the 40-49 age group, 3.2% of the infected women have died, compared to 2.1% of men. Only females have died in the 5-19 age group."

In fact there were 5 females in the 5-19 age group and 2 in the 0-4, and the lack of males in the 5-19 group is not statistically significant, since the number of deaths was so small. There were 4 male deaths in the 0-4 age group, which isn't statistically significant vs. 2 females either.

So they probably should skip that part....

Anyway, the overall raw data is that men were 65.7% of cases but only (!) 63.1% of deaths.

Ockham's razor suggests this is because men were more likely to be tested, rather than Indian men being somehow different from every other set of men known so far on the planet....

We know from the UK that men and women are equally likely to be infected - this might be different in India, where we can see that men are more likely to be diagnosed, but this does not constitute evidence that men are more likely to be infected....

Orangeblossom78 · 22/06/2020 17:53

Thank you for that analysis Shootsfruitsandleaves BBC have been quite sensationalist throughout this so should have expected that I suppose.

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