No space at school

[PinkDiamond1]

This is outing so have NC.

Our school is a large primary 3 form per year.

They've offered alternate weeks starting from the 8th June for year groups.

We were undecided on sending our DC back.

However we got an email yesterday saying they were at full capacity for key worker and Nursery R, Y1 and Y6 and can't accept anymore children!

Is this allowed?

Me saying yes or no isn't the point. The point is are they allowed to restrict sizes etc - ie refuse people who later want entry. Looks like they are until further guidance is issued

Of course it's the point, you knew there were spaces for 15 per room. You said no, fifteen others said yes. Therefore there is no room for your children and they have to restrict sizes to try and keep people safe. You need to take responsibility for deciding you didn't want the place and stop trying to blame school when it's of your own making.

are they allowed to restrict sizes

YES
To keep kids and staff safe.
You know about the 2m rule. You know how big the school is. It doesn’t take a mathematician to work out the space issue

Yes it is allowed and is in fact covered under the guidance. If space is an issue, then priority must be given to key worker children.

Many settings are now full with just key worker children, many more with only one or two year groups returning.

You can half a class and make is sound easy, make an arbitrary number such as 15 compulsory. No good when you don’t have a magic wand to double the amount of classrooms or staff.

If they don’t have room, they don’t have room, it is tough luck. Take it up with Gavin and Boris.

Years 1 and 6 are going back. If they have more than 1 class, they already have more than 1 teacher per year group, and likely it will be a bigger school who have double year groups further up the school. Still plenty to go a round.

Err and reception. Some schools also have nursery year attached... and what does the amount of classes matter - the child/teacher/classroom ratio will be the same whether it’s a 1 form or 3 form entry school.

You’ve got to love the determination of some posters here in believing they have all the answers that school SLT just couldn’t see. Although we can hopefully be sure that headteachers were not forgetting their entire reception cohort when devising their plans.

@Howaboutanewname

Imwonder about the legality of them refusing to accept children in the permitted year groups

Yes, schools should follow the guidance and if that means head teachers should magic up new staff, DBS check them, train them and pay them out of their own pocket, so be it.

Please there's no need for being obtuse. As a school governor for a number of schools, this is an issue I have raised as I believe that moving forward parents maybe able to make claims against schools that choose not to let return those of the permitted year groups currently on roll. The school undertakes to offer education on the 190 days a year. OK pandemic means we discount quite a few, but the undertaking is now there again for Recep3, y1 and y6. Hence the legalities question.

@MintyMabel

it's not just 2 year groups in most schools it is 3 years or possibly 4 if they have a nursery. Also don't forget that critical worker children and vulnerable children from all years are in school too which have to be in their own bubbles.

Years 1 and 6 are going back. If they have more than 1 class, they already have more than 1 teacher per year group, and likely it will be a bigger school who have double year groups further up the school. Still plenty to go a round. Critical worker cover hasn’t meant every school is open, the management of that has been different and opening all schools will make it easier to manage as schools which currently have a whole cluster’s kids will now only have their own

Where do you think schools are going to get funding for more teachers?

Where do they get funding for supply teachers to cover sickness, maternity cover etc anyway?

Across a local authority, there will be enough teachers to cover two year groups returning to school. It will just mean teachers perhaps having to go to a different school if one miraculously has 80% of its staff shielding or pregnant. Why must this always be made such a big fuss about?

Are you expecting the pregnant teachers to stop being paid or to go on early mat leave? Because otherwise schools are paying for the mat cover for an additional 7 weeks out of nothing which is really hard for schools to manage on a diminished budget. Staffing is by far the largest chunk of the budget and supply is shockingly expensive.

Not to mention my school are likely going to expect pregnant and other vulnerable teaching to take on more of the remote teaching provision for the year groups and students who aren't coming in - it's not like we're sitting at home doing nothing (although I'm aware from MN some schools provision is poorer than other). It's not making a big fuss about nothing- it's genuinely a logistical nightmare for schools to ensure that all students after provided for in the best way possible, matching what we know of our students and staff, and also trying to follow changing and late guidance from the government.

You also mention teachers going to different schools; I feel this is missing the point of going back (from an educational pov). Whilst distanced teaching isn't ideal, at least if I know the students in some way I'm miles more effective as a teacher - which students need a softer touch with lots of encouragement; which ones need stricter boundaries? Which ones like a bit of a joke and laugh; which ones need a more serious approach? etc

You said no. It's your fault.

Yes, they are able to restrict places based on the guidelines and the space available.

Please don't bother them with this complaint when it is your fault.

Key work numbers are relatively low across most LAs.

You’re making a lot of sweeping statements @MintyMabel. What is ‘relatively low’ and where are you getting this information on ‘most LAs’. We had one key worker class to start, in the last two weeks it’s grown to two because more key workers are going back after having previously been able to work from home. Next week we are opening a third key worker class. That is not a relatively low amount when you also want to accommodate returning year groups.

Agree - for us, keyworker childcare numbers have gone up 10-fold between the lowest point and from June 1st. 3 separate bubbles just for them, likely to go up again.

As a school governor for a number of schools, this is an issue I have raised as I believe that moving forward parents maybe able to make claims against schools that choose not to let return those of the permitted year groups currently on roll.

Parents suing schools, i'd love to know under what part of the Education Act 1996 covers the "choice" of following Government guidance and not having magical building powers or the ability to clone teachers?

titbumwillypoo, I think you could be right. I also think there may be claims via the unions, if teachers become ill in schools that did not take "adequate" steps to keep staff safe.

Rock and hard place

Yes they can do this. Some schools will have very few places for those who are not in the critical worker/ vulnerable group. In some cases some children who are in the vulnerable group are not getting places.
Legally there is never a right to a school place for anyone as some parents of children with sen will have experienced.

Could anyone explain how the staggered start/endtimes/breaks work. My local school, where my children went, is a 3 form entry, so 3 years going back means potentially 18 bubbles of 15 children plus the keyworkers children plus the pre school so I would imagine a minimum of 20 bubbles but could easily be more.

Staggering can't keep all the bubbles apart can it?

Does your school have more than one entrance @1forsorrow?

Think my local school will take nearly an hour to accommodate the staggered start times

Sorry But tough. You should have said yes initially.

The way we have done it - multiple external entrances - is to create staggered entry times where more than 1 group will be entering at a time BUT via widely separate entrances. That is obviously quicker than if we only had 1 entrance where all groups had to enter.

Similarly for break times, we have staggered exit from the building times, so the children make their way at staggered times to separate areas of the whole play area (because the route out of the classrooms is potentially congested so is used in turn), but several groups will be out for overlapping times, each in their own area (because there is plenty of space to keep these areas apart).

@Playdoughbum

I’m actually getting very worried for the mental health of headteachers. They have to decide whether or not it’s safe to open at all. Either way they are wrong of course. They have to make decisions about staffing - maybe calling people in the slightly vulnerable groups in. They have had (roughly) 47 updates on the guidance from the DFE - released at odd hours, weekends- with nothing to show what has been changed each time. They are still juggling key worker children and staffing rotas for that. They need to organise a vast array of cleaning equipment and ensure they have enough cleaners or people willing to clean. They then need to find out how many children they can safely have, given the space, staff and equipment. They then ask the parents. The parents say yes or no. Then the parents change their minds....

I wonder why it’s so hard to recruit headteachers

Me too. They are dealing with a LOT.

Ours are staggered and it's a one way system..there's two gates in so there's 4 times to go in and then we are to walk through and exit out of the rear gate rather than going back out the one we entered through

Ours are staggered too and we have gates they can use, but all the three year 6 bubbles are due to arrive at the same time, at the same gate, so they'll all be mingling and mixing outside the gate before coming through and being strictly segregated!! Crazy.

Ffs you said no!! Should you get priority over those who said yes?

Take some personal responsibility for your decisions. What do you think saying no meant?

@MintyMabel

Two years are returning to school. That’s five years worth of other teachers who can step in. This whole “they’ll need double the teachers” is ridiculous.

Who do you suppose is going to plan and organise the work for the rest of the children still at home?

@MintyMabel, Can you not count?
Nursery, Reception, Yr 1 and Yr 6. I think you'll find that makes four years returning, or three if your school doesn't have a Nursery.

If you said no then they probably made arrangements for all the parents who said yes. You can't just change your mind

DD's school said they needed to know by a specific date if she was returning. I said no but I wouldn't then change my mind and say yes and expect them to accommodate

Who do you suppose is going to plan and organise the work for the rest of the children still at home?

The same teachers who are managing fine covering key worker kids in school and doing it at the moment. DD’s teacher is a 1st year probationer and is managing both, I’m sure the more experienced ones are capable too.

I’m not saying the whole thing is easy and I don’t envy the task for school management, but this cry of “we’ll need twice as many teachers” just doesn’t stack up.

@MintyMabel then it will be interesting to see what that poor NQT's work load is like.