No space at school

[PinkDiamond1]

This is outing so have NC.

Our school is a large primary 3 form per year.

They've offered alternate weeks starting from the 8th June for year groups.

We were undecided on sending our DC back.

However we got an email yesterday saying they were at full capacity for key worker and Nursery R, Y1 and Y6 and can't accept anymore children!

Is this allowed?

OP why did you say no if you were unsure... surely it would have made more sense to say yes, and then decline the place if you changed your mind?

Can I just ask, for primary schools working to bubbles AND 2m social distancing between younger children in the same bubble, where that decision has come from? is it LA guidance? A specific school decision? I know it's not in the main DfE guidance, which only states:

It is still important to reduce contact between people as much as possible, so children, young people and staff where possible, should only mix in a small, consistent group and that small group should stay away from other people and groups. If you can keep older children within those small groups 2 metres away from each other, you should do so.

and

Where desks are used, they should be spaced as far apart as possible.

We are working to groups of 15, spaced out as far as possible, but not 2 metres in every direction.

@PinkDiamond1

There was deffo no first come first served!

They did send out a questionnaire and we said No - which is fair enough but we should be able to change our mind? That's a separate issue anyway - I don't think they can lower the amount of hours they're literally offering alternate weeks as it is but not many classes - maybe they don't have the staff.

So I believe it's just 2 classes of 15 a week per year group. Then another 2 sets of 15 the following week. Total about 60 kids per year group getting 3 weeks of teaching in total.

You said no, they planned according to those numbers. What did you expect would happen?

Posters might want to take that up with Gove and Johnson who have both referred to social distancing in schools. Gove even described the room layout.

Problem arises when two senior politicians haven't read guidance.

In EY settings the amount of space per child is specified, however. Which does dictate bubble size.

I think Boris has been very sneaky when he's discussed schools. He never managed expectations and I've never heard him say that it's not going to be full-time learning of the National Curriculum. I've also noticed that unlike Sturgeon he's not said that September is likely to be blended learning.
Wording things like this make it sound like it's individual schools, councils and unions that are being awkward

cantkeepawayforever

I think it is the schools themselves interpreting the guidance as 2m social distancing. I suspect in reality, trying to get Y R and 1 to socially distance won't work.

Our school have advised the kids will be in groups of no more than 15, but will not be socially distancing, either with their teacher or each other and there will be no PPE and only to send our children back if we are ok with this. Personally I'm bloody ecstatic - I was very concerned about the impact on DSs mental health of not being able to touch or play with friends and being made to sit at a desk all day.

You need to contact Boris . He is the one who made the announcement without speaking to schools, who had plucked the number 15 out of the air without giving any consideration to social distancing and classroom sizes and he is a member of the party who have underfunded schools for years. Our school can only accommodate half of the R, yr 1 and yr 6 children plus key worker children. Every room is being used , every member of teaching and support staff will be working full time . Schools can do no more . There is no flexibility in the system to allow people to change their minds .

However, in a one form entry with 2 staff off pregnant and another shielding, things start to get difficult....

Two years are returning to school. That’s five years worth of other teachers who can step in. This whole “they’ll need double the teachers” is ridiculous.

If two teachers are pregnant, the school would already need two additional staff to cover at some point, plenty of supply staff available at the moment.

It will be the individual schools cantkeepawayforever, or at least we've had no such advice from the LA.

TBF, initial indications were that 2m distancing would be required, when schools first started making their plans though.

The attitude of the head and teachers will make it work . Unbelievable!

The questionnaire sent out was to work out who wanted provision so they could arrange the groups and teaching staff required.

It was always going to be R, y1 and y6. There has been no mention of the other year groups going back. If your children are in R,1 or 6 you had the chance to select the provision but chose not to. You can't seriously be complaining that you chose not to and now want them to reconfigure all their work

@MintyMabel it's not just 2 year groups in most schools it is 3 years or possibly 4 if they have a nursery. Also don't forget that critical worker children and vulnerable children from all years are in school too which have to be in their own bubbles.

Where do you think schools are going to get funding for more teachers?

I’m actually getting very worried for the mental health of headteachers.
They have to decide whether or not it’s safe to open at all. Either way they are wrong of course.
They have to make decisions about staffing - maybe calling people in the slightly vulnerable groups in.
They have had (roughly) 47 updates on the guidance from the DFE - released at odd hours, weekends- with nothing to show what has been changed each time.
They are still juggling key worker children and staffing rotas for that.
They need to organise a vast array of cleaning equipment and ensure they have enough cleaners or people willing to clean.
They then need to find out how many children they can safely have, given the space, staff and equipment.
They then ask the parents. The parents say yes or no.
Then the parents change their minds....

I wonder why it’s so hard to recruit headteachers

The attitude of the head and teachers will make it work

The thing is, schools open themselves up to this type of accusation where the guidance is being interpreted in such different ways (I know that the real problem is the lack of clarity in the guidance, but that is not how the public will perceive it).

If some schools are deciding that 2m distancing is required, and only admitting 8 per class, while others are going by the letter of the guidance and going for 15 with as much distancing is possible; while some schools are stripping down all displays and others are just removing cushions and soft furnishings; while some are making small children sit at desks all day and others saying that social distancing will be enforced between but not within bubbles etc, then it will be possible for parents to infer that some schools have different attitudes to children's return to others, and this may (rightly or wrongly) be linked in people's minds to the specific attitude of the head and teachers.

It is probably more a function of 'appetite for risk', which of course is deeply influenced by personal experience, and it is definitely a fault of the unclear and sometimes contradictory guidance and messages from the centre. However, I can understand why the accusation is made.

it's not just 2 year groups in most schools it is 3 years or possibly 4 if they have a nursery. Also don't forget that critical worker children and vulnerable children from all years are in school too which have to be in their own bubbles.

Years 1 and 6 are going back. If they have more than 1 class, they already have more than 1 teacher per year group, and likely it will be a bigger school who have double year groups further up the school. Still plenty to go a round. Critical worker cover hasn’t meant every school is open, the management of that has been different and opening all schools will make it easier to manage as schools which currently have a whole cluster’s kids will now only have their own

Where do you think schools are going to get funding for more teachers?

Where do they get funding for supply teachers to cover sickness, maternity cover etc anyway?

Across a local authority, there will be enough teachers to cover two year groups returning to school. It will just mean teachers perhaps having to go to a different school if one miraculously has 80% of its staff shielding or pregnant. Why must this always be made such a big fuss about?

You said no so you can obviously provide the childcare. If you can’t you need to go and give them your sob story. You can’t be giving it the “my kids are not guinea pigs” one minute and then moaning the schools full up the next.

Yes, they are allowed to say there are no more spaces.

Schools can only cater to a certain number of children based on space and staff availability.

Priority was inquired about and answered, and they presumably worked backwards from there.

Our school has been very clear, like many others, that if they have more children wanting to come back than space, they will prioritise based on government guidelines: KW/vulnerable bubble, Reception, Year 1, then Year 6. So depending upon what requests have come in, a school may not cater for all/any of the year groups.

Our primary classroom is going to be 15. We are in an old Victorian building. 15 is in the government guidance which my head is following to the letter. Our LEA has given 15 as the bubble size to all schools. 2m apart at all times in reception is not expected. 2m apart is the ideal.

Less than half the school role is returning. Key work numbers are relatively low across most LAs.

Mountain - molehill.

My 3 year old has a funded place at a local authority preschool. She has been at home since March as the preschool closed before lockdown. She is an only child and hasn’t seen or interacted with another child in all that time. The preschool reopens on Monday, obviously at reduced capacity/hours etc, and I was asked if she would like her place back. I replied within minutes advising we would as she is the child of a keyworker, struggling at home without seeing other children, and has a speech delay and the preschool had really helped with this (obviously all of her private and NHS SALT has been cancelled indefinitely) and as such I was keen to get her back. I explained I understood that flexibility is needed and I’d be happy even if they could offer just one session a week compared to the usual amount she does as it would really help her. Her request to start back was turned down by the preschool advising that they can’t accommodate us, despite her being high priority. I understand why I’m theory, and get that it’s no ones “fault” as such, and I have huge sympathy for the amazing preschool and it’s wonderful staff who are having to try and salvage something from this mess at the moment, but to the same degree I’m pissed off that my child is suffering and struggling. I’m her mum and want to help her as much as I can, and that as the child of a keyworker, Who I feel is struggling massively now, she has been denied a place. I’m afraid our toddlers and preschoolers are going to be the major collateral damage of Covid 19 if this continues for much longer.

Me saying yes or no isn't the point. The point is are they allowed to restrict sizes etc - ie refuse people who later want entry. Looks like they are until further guidance is issued

I don't really know what you expect them to do. There are strict rules about keeping the bubble to 15 and if there isn't the room or the staff to teach them then they can't do anything. No teacher or school wants to turn away pupils and we all want them to be in school learning. However, these are the perimeters which have been set by the gov so there's very little that can be done. It's harsh but it's the only way to work a complex system which requires a great deal of planning and risk assessment. See if you can get their names on a waiting list.

@MintyMabel there has been a substantial increase in key worker children coming back to schools in my area in the last few weeks and certainly after half term the demand has increased, so much so that some schools can’t offer places to the eligible Year groups.

Also don’t forget staff have to continue providing remote lessons for those children who are still at home.