Track and Trace

[sunglasses123]

So once T&T is up and running and you get a notification that you have been in close contact with someone with CV19. You could be bleeped all the time especially if you are meeting your family which I believe is one of the highest risks and one of them has it Passing someone within 2 metres in a supermarket has little risk.

If for example its the winter and you are due to go on holiday, get married, go to a funeral etc and you are told to isolate then why would some people even get the app if they thought they would be stopped from doing something pre booked/arranged.

I see the younger people even less likely to have the track and trace because even if they had it they are likely to have symptons.

Or do we think its likely that its only with severe cases with a huge viral load given to you that will result in you being asked to self isolate.

I work at home most of the time anyway so this wouldnt be a big issue for me (unless I was about to go on holiday - I suspect your travel insurance would not cover you for this scenario) but for others I can envisage huge concerns going forward.

If there are high numbers of asymptomatic carriers surely it's going to be very hard to get rid of? Except over countries have managed it so it must be possible

How do they know they’ve got rid of it?
Maybe they just have lots of asymptomatic carriers.

Even if we are exposed to patients who come back with positive results, we are still not tested unless we show symptoms.

We work with very vulnerable people and who knows, maybe we are the biggest risk to the population because we are the ones unknowingly spreading it...

@AKissAndASmile yes, SERCO sent an email to a load of T&T recruits. They cc'd it rather than using bcc so all the recruits got each others email addresses.

How do they know they’ve got rid of it? Maybe they just have lots of asymptomatic carriers.

NZ is extremely close to being rid of it. 21 remaining active cases, no new cases despite widespread sentinel testing (testing asymptomatic people with no known exposure as well as asymptomatic people around known cases) in the last five days, and only a handful of new cases in the last few weeks. Most importantly, there hasn't been a case in more than 7 weeks that isn't linked to a previously known case, ie no cases of 'community spread'.

It's possible that there are still asymptomatic cases out there, but the chances are very, very low. If there were lots of asymptomatic cases out there (remembering that most asymptomatic cases do eventually show symptoms, even if they are asymptomatic at the time of testing), you would expect at least some of them to have triggered detectable symptomatic cases in the last two months.

Despite this, and the fact that we now have the lowest restrictions in the world (lower than Sweden), many people are still taking a cautious approach. Supermarket workers, salon staff and medical staff largely wear some form of PPE, many people check in with the contact tracing app and there is social distancing in public places, queues, etc. But overall there is a great sense of optimism that we have genuinely done it.

But isn't this going to put some people off getting tested? Anyone who is having an affair or who is doing or being somewhere
they shouldn't or just doesn't care? I know for now they are relying on goodwill, but Boris said that if goodwill doesn't work they will bring in fines, what about anyone who only has mild symptoms for a few days & doesn't bother getting tested?

Why would acquiring CV19 from somewhere you 'shouldn't' put people off being tested?

If someone is having an affair, they'll just omit to mention their affair to the contact tracer. They can't be fined for not being honest. That might make the source of their infection an unsolvable mystery but that's going to be the case for a number of cases anyway. The main point of contract tracing is to stop people from passing it on.

If I'm having an affair and get sick from my affair partner, my husband might have his suspicions about where I got ill from, but not getting tested won't change anything.

what about anyone who only has mild symptoms for a few days & doesn't bother getting tested

Well, some cases might be missed, but that won't make the entire system fall apart. The government just needs to strongly get the message out to people to get tested, even if they have few or mild symptoms.

Many of these objections seem to be letting perfect be the enemy of good. T&T may not catch every single case for a variety of reasons but it will catch a lot, and in doing so massively slow and reduce spread.

I almost wish Boris was keeping DC on, despite all the trouble it causes, due to some conspiracy. Unfortunately I think it may be because not even Boris himself believes he can do the job without Cummings. Alarming, implausible even, but quite a widely held view even amongst insiders apparently.

@Nat6999

The point about people disclosing affairs etc is an important one. In a Venereal Disease ID programme after WW2, there was an elite cadre of carefully vetted and trained individuals who were responsible for contact tracing. They were specifically tested for things like high emotional and social intelligence - the ability to tease out information and skilfully respond to huge curveballs presented by the person on the other line. In other words, it’s not a job that anyone can do while being guided by rote-memorized customer service lines.

This NYT piece has some great info:

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/23/sunday-review/coronavirus-contact-tracing.html#click=t.co/sLP3PFHKdp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.nytimes.com/2020/05/23/sunday-review/coronavirus-contact-tracing.html#click=t.co/sLP3PFHKdp

@Roomarmoset I live in Weston super Mare and I suspect we're all just about to find out. I'm sure it's entirely coincidental that the new "covid queen" as the Daily Mail is calling her just happens to be married to the never-to-be-unelected-ever local Tory MP. (The reason it's ironic that we have a Tory MP is that Weston is a pretty poor town for the West Country.) I'm also wondering how they're going to track anyone who uses more than one phone, say one for business, one for family, one for secret lover? And those people who don't have their location turned on permanently.

I don't think it works via the location.

There is absolutely no way I’m doing this. I find it kind of creepy like big brother tracking. Obviously if I end up with symptoms I’ll stay home and self isolate other than that no! If I did test positive and have been anywhere remotely near family
I’ll tell them myself that I have it and the responsibility is on them. But I won’t be telling on them like a child which this effectively is.

I’m really concerned that people are refusing to help contain the virus when they themselves have said they are fed up now. In other countries this has been the most effective way yet here, there’s a backlash. It’s public Health England running this, not the Tories. Please remember this

Thank you for thevanswers earlier. It's really made me wonder why bother with the app as i was told it has only a minor and supplementary role.

I'd remain uncomfortable about passing on someone else personal data to a third party. Then again, I'd let people know anyhow, which at the moment would be v easy, as the only people other than those who happen to be in a shop at the same time, are household members. And when return to workplace, I expect I'd have told them before any tracers called.

I’m not sure if this has been asked. But. If I are told to isolate as u have been near someone. Turns out u don’t get it. Then three weeks later your asked to do the same thing again. How long do U knee doing this for.

I haven't read the whole thread sorry.

Am I correct in thinking that this is anonymous, so if Bob gets covid and is asked to inform which people he is been in contact with they will just get a notification that days "you have been in contact with someone who has tested positive with coronavirus and need to isolate".

Presumably Bob doesn't need to prove this in any way (how could they?)

Doesn't this open up opportunities for people to just take the chance to impose quarantine on people they don't like? Stop their ex's wedding? Stop someone they don't like from going on holiday?

I suppose on the flipside, if someone tests positive they could have their friends asking them to nominate them so that they can get two weeks paid leave.

Is there really going to be enough honesty in the system for this to work?

@NELass

I’m really concerned that people are refusing to help contain the virus when they themselves have said they are fed up now. In other countries this has been the most effective way yet here, there’s a backlash. It’s public Health England running this, not the Tories. Please remember this

I agree. But hopefully it isn't actually a backlash just a few contrary people on here.

@NiknicK

There is absolutely no way I’m doing this. I find it kind of creepy like big brother tracking. Obviously if I end up with symptoms I’ll stay home and self isolate other than that no! If I did test positive and have been anywhere remotely near family I’ll tell them myself that I have it and the responsibility is on them. But I won’t be telling on them like a child which this effectively is.

You wouldn't be "telling on them" you would be helping them prevent transmission of the virus to their family, friends and other contacts.

@upthewolves

All of your points are valid, but like many, you're looking for problems.

Yes, it could ruin Tracy's wedding, or lead to people intentionally taking time off work unnecessarily. But it allows us a way out of lockdown, which has ruined many weddings and led to a lot of people being off work unnecessarily. So I for one am all for it.

Sadly, I think very quickly it will be made compulsory to self-isolate. You only have to think about threads we get over holidays about people being sick/chicken pox, but they are sure they’ll be fine and get on a crowded plane.

Schools have a 48hr ban on vomiting - the number of parents, “it was only a bad cough/they ate too much/they ate too many sweets/it’s food poisoning so not contagious”.

People are desperate to see family and go to places. So many people will just overlook symptoms/not isolate (“I definitely wasn’t by them for 15 mins”).

@strawberryblondestar I think you're right, especially if they can't even say "I wasn't by them for 15 mins" because they won't know who it is that has 'nominated' them. They will just say they haven't been anywhere. Much harder to contest that really.

@queryuiop Fair enough, yes. I completely see your point.

I'm just worried about the implications of a system that could allow so much impact on people's lives or cause them to be fined etc based on malicious behaviour from others.

I'm honestly quite shocked and really disappointed to read all these negative posts. We've had the likes of Singapore and South Korea being held up as examples of excellent management - largely because they have had really good contact tracing going. And now people don't want it to happen? Are planning not to reveal their contacts?

What on earth do you think is actually going to help us get back to any semblance of normality? This is a long term plan for long term management.

It's completely anonymous - if you get phoned as a contact, you won't be told the infected person, because the caller won't know. So carry on having affairs.

It's people who have been within 2m of you without PPE from two days before you developed symptoms. Hopefully once you developed symptoms you isolated anyway, so two days' worth of people - which if you are socially distancing shouldn't be too many.

It's asking about work and leisure activities, travelling on small vehicles and planes - not other public transport.

'Sensitive' work places such as schools, GP surgeries, prisons etc - these cases will be escalated to Tier 1, so (I presume) tracing will be done carefully and in a confidentiality-preserving manner.

It's all about stopping the spread of the disease.

I don't think people will comply either unless there are severe consequences for not doing so. Just imagine - Sept rolls around - people are FINALLY able to get back to work, kids FINALLY back at school and mum gets a call that someone who she was in a meeting with a week ago (but was actually sitting quite far away), has tested positive. Dad has been off work for months and is only just back. He can't work from home and his job is at risk if he doesn't go in. The family are already in financial difficulty as a result. Are they all going to willingly lock down at home for 14 days?

It's confused and confusing! The government need to get their shit together. Too many people have died already.

The people I know who have been contacted about proximity to known cases had extensive discussions with the contact tracers to establish their likelihood of exposure. It was definitely not a matter of just getting a text message to tell them to isolate, no discussion.

In terms of anonymity, the potential exposure was made very clear but not the actual person’s name eg, you were seated on a plane within 10 rows of a person known to have Covid 19. 10 rows is not regarded as a close contact so you will not need to self-isolate unless you moved seats to within two rows of X seat. Did you do that?”

In a lot of cases it will be relatively easy to identify the person you potentially had had a close contact with purely by the questions you’re asked, or at least narrow it down to a few people through some basic deductive reasoning. People are actually not infected by complete strangers all that often.