Track and Trace

[sunglasses123]

So once T&T is up and running and you get a notification that you have been in close contact with someone with CV19. You could be bleeped all the time especially if you are meeting your family which I believe is one of the highest risks and one of them has it Passing someone within 2 metres in a supermarket has little risk.

If for example its the winter and you are due to go on holiday, get married, go to a funeral etc and you are told to isolate then why would some people even get the app if they thought they would be stopped from doing something pre booked/arranged.

I see the younger people even less likely to have the track and trace because even if they had it they are likely to have symptons.

Or do we think its likely that its only with severe cases with a huge viral load given to you that will result in you being asked to self isolate.

I work at home most of the time anyway so this wouldnt be a big issue for me (unless I was about to go on holiday - I suspect your travel insurance would not cover you for this scenario) but for others I can envisage huge concerns going forward.

@trappedsincesundaymorn it’s not strangers, It’s people you know, and only those who you have been in close contact with (eg less than 2m for more than 15minutes or less than 1m for a shorter time, can’t remember exactly) and without PPE.

The question of whether you’ll give that info is a different one.

I wonder what happens if you are supposedly immune as you have antibodies from having already had it and have had the tests, I guess you still have to isolate for 2 weeks if you get the call.

these countries have not done better than us because they used track and trace but because they had a clearer and defined public health policy

And mass testing and contact tracing have been big parts of that public health policy. This is what the WHO have been pushing for from the start of this.

Honestly what do people want as an alternative? We can’t have a time machine to go back to January and do it better much though we’d all want to. Are we honestly prepared to let many thousands more die rather than even bother trying something that’s worked in other countries, just because Dominic Cummings is an arse?

I don’t think we are. I think most people will go along with this, the same way that most people went along with lockdown, not because the Tories wanted us to but because we knew it would save lives. And it did.

I think people will comply but I don’t actually think it will make any difference.

Over the last few days we have seen images of beaches that are crammed with thousands of people all rubbing shoulders with each other.

I think the ship has sailed in terms of people being bothered about whether they get the virus or not and whether they should isolate.

As someone has said - people will be weighing up whether self isolating for 14 days when they’re feeling perfectly well is worth it in terms of how it will impact on their daily life.

I think this is all smoke and mirrors to enable them to say the 5 tests are met. How many of us would be able to say who we had been within 2m of for more than 15 minutes without having the means to contact them ourselves to tell them we’ve tested positive?

If it’s a stranger (and why if we’re still SD?) we’re not going to be able to tell the tracer. If we know them, how does a tracer help?

Without the app it is just something they can point at and try to claim credit for doing something.

The FT analysis of our death rates (worst in the world by any measure) shows just how utterly appallingly our government has mismanaged the situation and T&T is not changing that.

@TheAlphaandtheOmega When Hancock was interviewed on Radio 4 this morning he said that they are still unclear about the effectiveness of antibodies, so for the time being they would ask people who had previously tested positive to self isolate again.

The minute BJ sided with DC was when people lost faith.

I saw Hancocks being interviewed this morning about T&T and he just kept saying we have to trust members of the society to do the right thing etc and all I could think was how hypocritical it was.

Putting the blame at our door, saying it’s our responsibility to follow the rules, but they don’t care if their own constituents break them.

Why would they think society can be trusted when their own party can’t be trusted?

It was indeed. The mismanagement of the Cummings affair has undermined public trust, and berating people for having a logical and understandable response to this isn't placing the blame in the appropriate location.

How much of a narcissist do you have to be to see that your continued presence seriously threatens to undermine a huge public health campaign, but still obstinately refuse to leave?

if you get phoned as a contact, you won't be told the infected person, because the caller won't know.

I don't think that's right. The infected person will have given names (if known) & details of who they were in contact with. It's not like govt has a central database of everyones' faces, numbers, addresses or can rely on CCTV.

Well, it is right.

If you're a confirmed case, you tell your tracer that you've been in touch with A, B and C.

A, B and C go on a list of contacts - which doesn't say WHO they were in contact with - and the next tracer picks up the task of phoning A.

@Redolent

How much of a narcissist do you have to be to see that your continued presence seriously threatens to undermine a huge public health campaign, but still obstinately refuse to leave?

Indeed. Fucking ridiculous

SophieB100. Thank you, just wondered, more for DS than me

How much of a narcissist do you have to be to see that your continued presence seriously threatens to undermine a huge public health campaign, but still obstinately refuse to leave?

Well DC doesn’t think the rules are there to protect the public does he? If the lockdown rules that he created, don’t actually have to be followed, then it clearly isn’t a campaign with any huge meaning or importance is it?

That’s what message the Government are giving by saying there was absolutely nothing wrong with what DC did.

If he and two of his family members, all of whom were ill and symptomatic didn’t have to follow the rules then why should asymptomatic people?

I’m not saying that’s how I see it, but I imagine a lot of people will.

The Government’s stance and approach has lost all credibility as far as I’m concerned.

If BJ doesn’t mind if symptomatic people break lockdown guidelines then I doubt anyone will care if asymptomatic people do the same.

How much of a narcissist do you have to be to see that your continued presence seriously threatens to undermine a huge public health campaign, but still obstinately refuse to leave?

But conversely, how fucking shallow are the British public if we're happy to undermine a huge public health campaign just because of one (ok, a few!) dickhead?

The tracing website has already crashed so...

I will download the app.

I don't trust this government as far as I could throw them (and I wish they could be thrown!!).

I'm usually very wary of data collection practices. Didn't even have a smartphone until this year because of this.

I don't trust the app, but reducing the virus until better treatments is more important.

It's surely an option for those who can afford it to get a really cheap smartphone (mine was £40 new) and install the app on that, use it only for the purposes of the virus, and bin after. Or change your phone after.

Worrying for people who don't have access to a smartphone. I know quite a few people who are on Universal Credit who don't have a smartphone as they can't afford it or have to sell it to make ends meet. Also my elderly relatives.

@AtiaoftheJulii

How much of a narcissist do you have to be to see that your continued presence seriously threatens to undermine a huge public health campaign, but still obstinately refuse to leave?

But conversely, how fucking shallow are the British public if we're happy to undermine a huge public health campaign just because of one (ok, a few!) dickhead?

It isn't shallow to have had your trust in government damaged by successive episodes of objectively damaging behaviour. It's an inevitable consequence of something that goes way beyond mere dickheadedness.

If BJ doesn’t mind if symptomatic people break lockdown guidelines then I doubt anyone will care if asymptomatic people do the same.

If DC is classed as an 'extreme' case (wealthy senior government official who probably could get private childcare in London if he sort it out) then everyone else can make a case for ignoring the rules.

And its not just his actions that are the problem here.

It's the fact that Johnson personally has legitimatised this and asked the rest of government to support that.

Alternatives to testing and contact tracing:

- let the virus just work it’s way through, and kill loads of people;

- keep entire country locked down until there’s an effective treatment or vaccine, would wreck the economy (and indirectly kill loads of people).

The countries that have got this virus under control have done it through testing and contact tracing. That’s why our government have finally decided they need to do it too.

It's not necessarily about 'alternatives to'. It's about how the UK system with operate, how its being promoted and the support given to those who are traced and traced.

1. PHE data policy is dodgy. It passes GDPR because of the clause within the act about 'national crisis'. However it plans to store data for 20 years long after the crisis has passed. This isn't a scientific decision but a political one. There are ways to amend this and to avoid a situation where there are not 'unintended consequences' to wider public health (eg from the sale of data to private insurance companies or from a hack 5 years from now)

2. We have all this social enforcement business with this stuff about 'civic duty'.

Unfortunately this has been fundamentally undermined not by the initial actions and explanation from Dominic Cummings, but more importantly by the personal legitimatisation that Cummings had 'extreme circumstances'. If a man who is a very wealthy senior government official can use that as an excuse rather than a find appropriate solution within London, then anyone can. And they will.

It renders 'civic duty' as meaningless amongst a small but significant proportion of the population. The system relies on high compliance to reduce growth of the virus by just 15%. Erosion of the concept of civic duty (because it doesnt apply to childcare situations) could reduce that further.

C) Add to that the lack of good sick pay cover for many - particularly those on minimum wage, zero hours contracts and self employed and you have a large group for whom the system creates a serious financial threat.

You also have situations which might arise where if X is identified through track and trace and they feel this threatens their income they may well threaten (or worse) those they believe have given their details to PHE. In this way you may have certain communities which become uncooperative either because they fear identifying themselves or others.

D) since complying with track and trace is not mandatory its also, whether you like it or not, a legitimate decision not to take part in it for whatever reason you have. This is again problematic in the context of Cummings choosing to not observe a civic duty expected of others.

We also have the additional problem where we have a higher level of infection still in the general population than places which have successfully used track and trace as part of their public health strategy. This is in part due to our early abandonment of tracing and our late / lax lockdown policy (which has been driven by politics rather than science to a degree that members of SAGE have publicly started to express concern)

So no its not just about track and trace.

It's about long term concerns about unintended consequences, our Public Health policy being far more politicised than in many other countries and the wider context in which our system exists in.

But people seek to say its 'evil' to not swallow the whole package without thought and questioning why track and trace in the UK has fundamental problems (which could largely be fixed if identified and there is political will to make those changes without damaging the overall purpose of track and trace). Saying its 'evil' turns a blind eye to problems and that in turn risks fundamentally undermining the effectiveness of track and trace because it fails to address lack of public confidence as being a real hurdle here which is perhaps uniquely British.

I think getting public compliance with this on a voluntary basis is going to be very difficult after the Cummings debacle.

I think it’s not a bad idea in principle but it does throw up lots of questions. Is it a proportionate measure to impinge on the freedom of potentially huge swathes of people to bring about a mitigation in transmission of the virus of 5 - 5%? Doesn’t really seem like it to me. I’m kind of hoping the next Gina Miller comes along and challenges the government on this, especially if and when the app comes in.

Also people might happily do this once but they aren’t going to put up with it multiple times especially of they are working and will only get SSP. There’s a limit as to how people will willingly live off £95 a week “for the common good”.

5 - 15%

Honestly what do people want as an alternative?

The mandatory 14 day isolation for people with no symptoms to be dropped.

It's unreasonable to expect workers to repeatedly self-isolate when well, with no access to a test to ascertain whether they have Covid and are asymptomatic or virus free yet still expected to stay at home, at risk of losing their job.

In a community like mine with such a high infection rate it's crazy lockdown is being lifted so early. Yet it is, the Lake District has been opened to visitors (for infection to spread in and out), many schools are bringing back greater numbers of pupils from next week, businesses are reopening including shops. Hairdressers, cinemas, hospitality to follow? They need people's custom but the risk of frequent mandatory isolation due to work and school contacts is going to be high enough without taking all those risks on top.

Face coverings help to reduce asymptomatic spread, make those mandatory indoors. Testing and tracing resources remain limited, keep them focused on the sectors that need them most. This local news article details how that's being done in the care sector here in Cumbria to manage what are continuing high numbers of cases.

www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/18480640.care-home-staff-cumbria-grateful-support-continue-battle-coronavirus/

they said that the trial of the app had not been effective . Matt Hancock yesterday.

If it doesn't work , why should I join in? Why should I give up elements of my privacy for something that doesn't work?

Yes other countries have made it work. Other countries who have so far managed the whole disaster with significantly lower loss life

The only way it can possibly work is if the numbers of people who have to isolate are tiny, and so the government can reimburse them for their loss of wages and liberty

And that requires a very low number of infections in society which is not where we are at today with over 2000 new cases confirmed each day, whilst we are in lockdown

The mandatory 14 day isolation for people with no symptoms to be dropped

This ^

I work in an SEN school where we cannot socially distance or use PPE. I am often in contact with both the children and staff for longer than 15 minutes. The children live in a residential home. So if one of us comes in contact with someone presumably all school staff and house staff (as the children will have been in contact with us) to self isolate for 14 days. We would have to shut both the school and residential home.

So far we have only had one case of the virus and one person who needed to be tested but it was negative.