Will other unis follow Cambridge and say no face to face lectures for the whole of next year?

[WhatP1antWhere]

If so won’t that cause huge levels of deferring and a tight squeeze on places for the following years coming up. Places will surely go to those who have deferred first.Just feeling for year 11. Exams cancelled, no support from schools, term ending early, Alevels courses going to be disrupted and potentially now huge competition for uni places.

I started doing online lectures a while back because the majority of students said they preferred them. They are a lot more time consuming though!

A lot of people with disabilities are seeing the move to mixed modes & online as incredibly helpful for them. Are their rights of less value than the DC of MN posters?

Oh yes! And others who have small children or who are carers or who have long-term illnesses or who live a distance away are very happy.

It's a mixed cohort.

@yet surely though the time invested is recouped in future years when some of the really great lectures can be reused or pooled with colleagues in other leading faculties? isn't the overall intention that the maximum number of willing students learn in the best way possible. That's great that you are already doing online lectures. For the millennials mostly all equipped with laptops seems very appropriate, especially for any vocational-type learning they could then refer to on the job.

Dds university put all lectures online as a matter of course last year. So the ones that could or didn't want to access live lectures wouldn't miss out but the ones who enjoyed getting up and going and interacting with humans also benefitted. That would be the ideal and hopefully we will get back to that soon.

But they don't know what they're paying for yet. They need to wait until it's announced officially and then make an informed decision

COVID-19 or not so many who take this consumerist attitude (i.e. the one you are arguing against) think they are paying for high marks and a degree instead of actual education.

Dds university put all lectures online as a matter of course last year. So the ones that could or didn't want to access live lectures wouldn't miss out but the ones who enjoyed getting up and going and interacting with humans also benefitted. That would be the ideal and hopefully we will get back to that soon.

We do this as a matter of course and have done for years. However, we still expected attendance and all courses were still attendance monitored. It was never meant to be an excuse to not turn up.

Group discussion is still vital and this will still happen. Even if we are delivering remotely in September students will still have timetabled sessions that they will be expected to attend.

My humble view for payments is that 80% is about right. That is, 80% fees, 80% salaries. It's not that anyone is working less, it's just a gesture by all to get through this pandemic (and better than redundancy or students pulling out all together). 80% was good enough for furlough and it's a gesture that everyone appreciates. I don't think we can get through this without everyone taking part of the load.

think they are paying for high marks and a degree instead of actual education bollocks.

Any student who isn't financially aware is doing themselves a disservice.

So they can fork out for their degree, but if they dare question it they are spoilt consumers? Gaslighting at its finest!

@yet surely though the time invested is recouped in future years when some of the really great lectures can be reused or pooled with colleagues in other leading faculties?

In some subjects maybe. There are 'really great lectures' and there are subjects where really great lectures have currency in the future. But in most others the subject of the landscape changes rapidly or lectures have to be sculpted to current events. Plus, mostly we don't produce 'really great lectures' of the Hawking or Mary Beard variety. Those might get produced a couple of times a year even by the 'great names'. The amount of work that goes in is astronomical. Mostly what we try to do is shovel enough knowledge in so that disinterested students can be distracted enough from Facebook to listen enough to gain enough knowledge to pass the exam.

think they are paying for high marks and a degree instead of actual education

Not bollocks at all. I've had students say this to me as well working out how much 'they' are paying me per lecture.

Online learning requires a lot of commitment, self discipline and maturity. You need to draw on something to get you through. I think for a lot of undergraduates these are skills they develop or fine tune at university - they don’t necessarily have them in their first year

And yet quite a few smug MNers think our much younger Y10s and 12s should have those skills and it is down to inadequate "parenting" if they don't.

Not bollocks at all. I've had students say this to me as well working out how much 'they' are paying me per lecture

My favourite was when this happened and I asked them how much they paid for the library and they said, "but I don't use the library".

My humble view for payments is that 80% is about right. That is, 80% fees, 80% salaries. It's not that anyone is working less, it's just a gesture by all to get through this pandemic (and better than redundancy or students pulling out all together). 80% was good enough for furlough and it's a gesture that everyone appreciates. I don't think we can get through this without everyone taking part of the load

People who were furloughed weren't working!! I'm working more hours than I've ever worked.
You do realise that the vast majority of academics are not on high salaries and many don't have permanent contracts? HE is the second biggest sector for zero hour contracts.

Not to mention that the full fees don't cover the cost of running many degree course. Reduce the fees to 80% and universities shut. It's that simple.

rhubarb my dp is an academic and he has worked at least 60 hours this week, why on earth should he get 80% salary?

Why should academics take an 80% pay cut? Genuine question I don't follow the logic of that being a good idea when they're still working. Anyone that's furloughed yes, great idea. For people still working, in whatever capacity, no.

And I repeat for the umpteenth time, it is not in the universities gift legally to change undergraduate fees.

If they pay me 80% of my salary, I'll only work 4 days a week, instead of 6. And one of those days will be working on my research.

It just doesn't work. Most academics subsidise the education of MN's DCs with unpaid work, of around 15 hours a week on average (ie a 50 hour week when we're paid for 35 hours or thereabout).

So if you cut my salary, I cut my hours. It's not furlough, where people are paid to do nothing.

And I repeat for the umpteenth time, it is not in the universities gift legally to change undergraduate fees and yet a pp said we were lucky unis weren't raising fees. So they can raise them but not lower them? And isnt 9250 the maximum they can charge - they don't have to charge 9250 for all courses, but they do!

And isnt 9250 the maximum they can charge - they don't have to charge 9250 for all courses, but they do!

Because it costs more than the fees 'paid' by students to run courses!!

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Not bollocks at all. I've had students say this to me as well working out how much 'they' are paying me per lecture

My favourite was when this happened and I asked them how much they paid for the library and they said, "but I don't use the library".

Wow!!!

I don't know how you kept your calm.

I wonder where they think information comes from. Accurate information that can be used to build so much.

All UK students are subsidised by overseas students - you know, those students no-one likes to work with in groups? Having read a lot of MN parent complaints of their DCs having to do “all the work” in group work with students for whom English is a 2nd or 3rd language. Look at the fees they pay - that’s closer to what courses actually cost to deliver.

and yet a pp said we were lucky unis weren't raising fees. So they can raise them but not lower them?

I don't think that was a serious comment. I suspect it was prompted by suggestions that fees should be cut because courses were being taught wholly or partly online, despite the fact that it is likely to cost the universities more to deliver online courses.

There also seems to be an assumption that the fees currently charged are sufficient to cover the costs of delivering courses in the traditional manner. That is not necessarily the case, particularly for STEM subjects, but universities cannot charge more because fees are capped by the government.

@cologne4711

Online learning requires a lot of commitment, self discipline and maturity. You need to draw on something to get you through. I think for a lot of undergraduates these are skills they develop or fine tune at university - they don’t necessarily have them in their first year

And yet quite a few smug MNers think our much younger Y10s and 12s should have those skills and it is down to inadequate "parenting" if they don't.

Well the test is when the support structures are removed - usually both home and school at the same time. I think there is an inevitable bit of rebalancing until they find their feet.

I also had jobs at university - I needed to hold on to that structure. I found it very helpful for mental and physical health and the transition to working full time on graduating. It gave me structure and a sense of achievement that got me through those times when you inevitably dip plus it meant my overdraft was n't as bad as it could be. The best thing I think it did was help me organise my time.

I don't know how you kept your calm

Lie back and think of the evaluation scores :(

This is the same strategy as when I am told;

"I don't see how this is relevant".
"This is really dry".
"This is boring".
"I can't turn up because I have work".

It is also the same strategy I use when I walk behind a student in a tute to see that they are online shopping or look out over a class to see them all goggle-eyed looking at FB, thumbs in upward scroll motion. It's one reason I put lectures online even before COVID-19.

Sometimes I watch this and laugh maniacally

To the best of my knowledge, there are online learning specialists at many UK universities. They will have worked on moodle, designed the portal and worked with curriculum heads on how the content is delivered. I am doing an online course that is working well - all the necessary information is there - which depts would have already (syllabus, weekly schedule, reading lists). Transferring this to the IT dept is not the difficult part - video lectures, seminars through Adobe Connect, links, etc all straightforward but it really depends on the subject and whether it lends itself to 80 - 90% reading and discussion like English or History. We also have access to online journals and an online library where we can order hard copies of books to be sent out or download/read online.

This is a masters course, though.