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Original poster

Will other unis follow Cambridge and say no face to face lectures for the whole of next year?

216 replies

WhatP1antWhere · 21/05/2020 07:39

If so won’t that cause huge levels of deferring and a tight squeeze on places for the following years coming up. Places will surely go to those who have deferred first.Just feeling for year 11. Exams cancelled, no support from schools, term ending early, Alevels courses going to be disrupted and potentially now huge competition for uni places.

OP posts:
IcedPurple · 21/05/2020 18:05

No, I suppose I've just read these comments incorrectly

Yes, you have.

The poster is simply saying that online teaching is not 'better value' than the entire university experience. I suspect that most students would agree, which is why a recent survey said that many will defer if teaching is online only next year. That's in no way a criticism, let alone a 'castigation' of academics who are doing the best they can in a difficult situation. But you can't make people believe online lessons are great value if that is not in fact their experience.

TheWordWomanIsTaken · 21/05/2020 18:09

CatandtheFiddle Come on, what is it that my posts are saying other than what they are saying?

I have been perfectly clear that students (who are at the bottom of the food chain in this setting) are the ones losing out both socially and financially.
Universities and Landlords both still want their £££s.
Claiming that being a student at the moment (or if you are about to be) is the same experience (or better) as for those who graduated last year is bollocks quite frankly.
InDubiousBattle I know that this is not what their student fees fund but whilst the value of the degree may be the same to employers et al, the value of the experience to the student is not. And I include lectures by zoom in their bedrooms in that.

ITonyah · 21/05/2020 18:18

To say they are getting better value shows a stunning lack of emotional intelligence. I'm amazed anyone would think that, let alone type it on here with a straight face. I bloody hope you don't teach my dd.

cinammonbuns · 21/05/2020 18:24

@CatandtheFiddle

How was my statement in any way castigating academics?

The idea that most students think they are getting more value for money with the current university situation is absolutely laughable and I think the large majority of academics would agree with me.

This is not the fault of academics though obviously it’s because of CV. I wasn’t blaming academics at all and I have no idea how you could interpret my post to suggest I was.

SueEllenMishke · 21/05/2020 18:44

To say they are getting better value shows a stunning lack of emotional intelligence. I'm amazed anyone would think that, let alone type it on here with a straight face. I bloody hope you don't teach my dd

no, what you are demonstrating here is your lack of ability to understand that there is a wide variety of experiences. My MA students have had significantly more support ( both academic and pastoral) than they would usually get. And I mean significantly more....up to 4x the number of personal tutorials they would usually expect. The profession they are about to enter has been directly impacted by the current situation so I have facilitated additional CPD sessions and training to help them prepare for a very different professional world than they were expecting to enter......and that's just to list a few things. I know these students have had a positive experience just as I can understand that isn't he same across the board.

However, our UG commuter students are reporting higher than usual levels of student satisfaction. Remote learning suits them and they like it. It's not all doom and gloom.

cinammonbuns · 21/05/2020 18:53

@SueEllenMishke well good for you students. Unfortunately they are most definitely in the minority of students if they have been getting more support since this all started.

titchy · 21/05/2020 19:02

point of view of most students - who are the clients after all

And that one word 'clients' has told everyone exactly what your position is. Students are not clients FFS. Angry

IcedPurple · 21/05/2020 19:06

And that one word 'clients' has told everyone exactly what your position is. Students are not clients FFS.

My post was in response to someone who said that students are getting 'better value for money'. And insofar as students (and/or their parents) are paying thousands of pounds for a service, then they are indeed clients. And even if unis may legally be classed as charities, many of them are run as businesses, rather ruthless businesses too.

Enchantmentz · 21/05/2020 19:07

I am hoping my University follows the same idea, they sent an email out indicating they are making plans and widening their online resources. They already trialled/optionally recording lectures last term so I imagine that will be adopted more heavily. Towards the end of march when lockdown happened lecturers were recording from home while screen sharing the slides.

I am in between a rock and a hard place with next year, considered deferring but like pp's said what else could I do, dc will have part time schooling at same time. So I need to consider what my studying versus her mixed schooling will look like.Sad

SueEllenMishke · 21/05/2020 19:09

Students are not clients FFS

BeltaneBride · 21/05/2020 19:12

They are paying customers

SueEllenMishke · 21/05/2020 19:13

But they aren't buying a product.

IcedPurple · 21/05/2020 19:14

Students are not clients FFS

Why did you say they get 'better value for money' then?

SueEllenMishke · 21/05/2020 19:20

They are paying for tuition. That doesn't make them my clients or customers. They are still students.

The 'value for money' narrative is unfortunately a common one but one one i'm particularly happy with. My use was in response to posters using that terminology.

SueEllenMishke · 21/05/2020 19:22

*not one

IcedPurple · 21/05/2020 19:26

They are paying for tuition. That doesn't make them my clients or customers. They are still students.

Just because they're students doesn't mean they can't also be clients in a certain sense. If they didn't pay for the tuition, then you'd be out of a job.

The 'value for money' narrative is unfortunately a common one but one one i'm particularly happy with. My use was in response to posters using that terminology.

But you still made the argument that online tuition was 'better value' than on campus education. To which I responded that since it's the students (or their parents) who are paying - and you can call them or not call them clients or customers if you prefer, it doesn't really matter - then it's them who get to decide.

titchy · 21/05/2020 19:27

They're not paying customers. If they were they'd be guaranteed a product at the end. They are contributing towards the facilitation of their learning via a government loan.

It is not in the universities' gift to change or refund fees en masse - not allowed. It is however possible for the Government to refund the SLC part of any fee loan students have taken out, and to cancel part of the interest charged.

So if you want to complain, complain to the Government, via your MP.

And when you're all queuing up for your vaccine, looking at your kids' GCSE certificate, taking your cat to the vet, discussing a fabulous new author at bookclub, admiring the new building in your city centre, just remember who trained the bio scientist, teacher, vet, author, architect.

titchy · 21/05/2020 19:29

If they didn't pay for the tuition, then you'd be out of a job.

They didn't pay 20 years ago and we were still very happily employed thank you. So fuck off with that attitude. Are you someone that tells nurses you pay their salary?

Rainbow12e · 21/05/2020 19:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IcedPurple · 21/05/2020 19:34

They didn't pay 20 years ago and we were still very happily employed thank you. So fuck off with that attitude. Are you someone that tells nurses you pay their salary?

As I said above, I work in a university myself.

You seem to be very angry about something nobody here has actually said, so I don't see the point in engaging with you further.

SueEllenMishke · 21/05/2020 19:35

But you still made the argument that online tuition was 'better value' than on campus education

No I didn't. I said my students had probably had 'more value for money' because not only did they get ALL of their face to face teaching they have also had a significant amount of additional remote and online teaching and support.
I have made the point that remote teaching doesn't always mean worse though and I stand by that.

Just because they're students doesn't mean they can't also be clients in a certain sense. If they didn't pay for the tuition, then you'd be out of a job

They are not clients. That is an entirely different relationship dynamic and doesn't work in an educational setting. Students are entitled to have an excellent student experience and excellent tuition but they are not clients or customers.

IcedPurple · 21/05/2020 19:40

No I didn't. I said my students had probably had 'more value for money' because not only did they get ALL of their face to face teaching they have also had a significant amount of additional remote and online teaching and support.

Well yeah... you did. You mentioned value for money. I'm not sure why you're now insisting that they couldn't possibly be 'clients' or 'customers' when it was you used the term 'value for money'.

They are not clients. That is an entirely different relationship dynamic and doesn't work in an educational setting. Students are entitled to have an excellent student experience and excellent tuition but they are not clients or customers.

Like I've said... call them or don't call them whatever you like. But it's they who will decide if they think paying full fees for Zoom classes is a good deal or not.

SueEllenMishke · 21/05/2020 19:43

Other people were using the term value for money. I was responding to that. It is a discourse used in HE. It's one people understand.... but it doesn't mean I have to like or.
The consumerisation of HE is one of the worst things to happen to the sector.

It doesn't mean they are clients or customers. Working in a university you should understand the issues with using that terminology? Or are you just being deliberately argumentative?

cinammonbuns · 21/05/2020 19:47

@icedpurple exactly. If somebody is paying for a good or service they are a customer. I do not see why that’s a controversial comment.

@titchy I think you do need to calm down. Nothing on this thread has warranted swearing. And I don’t think anybody has said anything against academics so your anger is misplaced.

Students are the only ones who can decide whether they are getting ‘better value’ and I can guarantee if you look at any forum of students then most of them will say they are not.

IcedPurple · 21/05/2020 19:48

It doesn't mean they are clients or customers. Working in a university you should understand the issues with using that terminology? Or are you just being deliberately argumentative?

We're talking in circles now so this will be my last post on this particular topic.

My point is that as the recipients of a service (tuition) - we don't even have to use the dread word 'clients' - it is students who get to decide if something is 'better value' or not. And if the surveys about the numbers planning to defer in the event of courses going online are accurate, then it seems many of them do not consider it such great value.

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