Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

Worried About Coronavirus- thread 39

605 replies

CrunchyCarrot · 05/05/2020 21:36

New thread!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
lubeybooby · 12/05/2020 15:43

@ajandjjmum we have indeed done that and there's no doubt a far worse disaster was averted BUT we also haven't had the success of Italy in getting the numbers down. Italy's number at their highest daily were not that different to ours but have come right down, whereas we got numbers almost as high and then just... stayed there. If they can do it so can we - but we haven't. As I say we're just bobbing along bouncing around the same old numbers give or take a few. Italy's tougher lockdown has produced noticeable results far better than ours, and there's no doubt that's the difference.

I just wish we'd done a tougher lockdown from the start rather than our quite wishy washy one so that we too could be heading for tiny numbers

EmeraldShamrock · 12/05/2020 17:34

627 hospital deaths counted today. It doesn't seem to be easing. BJ is taking a huge gamble.

EmeraldShamrock · 12/05/2020 17:36

Plus Italy didn't have the benefit of foresight.

Keepdistance · 12/05/2020 18:57

Italy only had mainly the north.
But BJ let it get right round the country.

Keepdistance · 12/05/2020 19:09

How much have the gov saved though on say 30k pensioners?
At least 8k per year. Some will have 10yre left. 2bn?

Do we need a summer camp for up to 30yo? Like a pox party.
But theres still a 1% chance of hospitalization
If they stayed say 6w that might be long enough.
I still think germany idea of immunity passport has some merit. Gets logged centrally that youve had it (with proof) then you can go in pubs and restaurant etc.
Because at the moment the issue is spread to lots at once.
Im sure people would rather these businesses survived and were safer than wait till everyone has had it.
1/10 londoners could already be going in cafes and shops and pubs etc. Obviously still hand washing and caution because it could be on your hands /clothes etc

Choux · 12/05/2020 22:14

How much have the gov saved though on say 30k pensioners?
At least 8k per year. Some will have 10yre left. 2bn?

FT estimates 50k plus have died. Full state pension is £8,750 a yr. my mum gets less though presumably as she didn't have enough NI contributions. Yrs left is hard to predict but even 50k x £7k p.a. for 5 yrs is £1.75bn.

Then there is also their cost to the NHS via saved medicines, regular GP and hospital appts for monitoring existing health issues, diagnosing new ones, treatments and surgeries needed. An average of £1k p a for those 5 yrs is £0,25bn.

Plus the social care costs - who knows how many of those pensioners are not self funding their care home costs. Plus the ones currently living independently may have careers now or would need them or residential care in the future. There's a Full Fact page which says in 2018/19 councils budgeted to spend £16bn on adult social care. There are around 12m people aged 65+ and 3.2m aged 80+. If we assume the two thirds of the money is spent on those 80+ then that's £10.7bn on 3.2m or £3,344 each per annum (which seems low but I guess there are those living independently or self funding their care in the over 80's group). So if 50k die who would otherwise have lived 5 yrs that's £0.8bn saved.

Which makes a total of £2.8bn saved to date. The above estimates are that a pensioner costs an average of £11.3k p.a.

Please do check my maths and challenge my assumptions. I haven't really researched things like the NHS costs but I have helped my parents and an aunt get to an average age of 85 with associated health issues so have a little insight into their many appointments and medicines. My mum has hospital appointments every 6wks for an eye condition and often needs another appt for treatment and my dad got a dual chamber pacemaker fitted a couple of years ago which with all the diagnostic appts, the surgery, the follow up appointments including daily outpatient diuretics drips to relieve his heart failure symptoms must have cost £10k plus in a year.

ToffeeYoghurt · 13/05/2020 00:40

Choux I'd be interested to know how much tax has been paid by those who are now of pension age. I bet it's a lot.
And many still pay tax. I mean income tax. Depending on savings.
We all, working or not, pay tax of course through VAT.

It's a dangerous slippery slope thinking about how much individuals cost. We start with pensioners then what. It moves on to younger disabled people? Those unable to work, then it would be anybody with any disability or illness requiring medical treatment.

Then we could move on to the costs of children. Medical care during pregnancy and labour, NHS care throughout life, schools - that's a big one (look at how much council tax revenue is spent on education). And migrants. How much does it cost to house, clothe, and feed them (and their families). A definitely dangerous slippery slope.

Our pensioners have paid more than their fair share. They have the right to safe twilight years.

Murray It's just awful what you're describing. It's disgusting what's been going on - and for so long. A shameful way to treat the more vulnerable in our society. Which is clearly not a civilised judging by that.

When did all this tendering out for contracts nonsense start? Instead of things being directly run by the state/local authority. Was it the Blair years? Or before?

ToffeeYoghurt · 13/05/2020 00:44

Which makes a total of £2.8bn saved to date
The white elephant that is HS2 has and continues to cost us billions. Far better that money goes to the people who've been contributing to the pot for the past 40 or 50 years.

We could make some pension savings however. We could cut the very generous pensions received by retired MPs. It's far more generous than almost any other pension scheme in the UK.

Choux · 13/05/2020 01:21

@ToffeeYoghurt I entirely agree that everyone has the right to be safe in their old age or whenever they become vulnerable. I did the back of a fag packet calculations after seeing a pp's estimate.

But there will be a Treasury / DHSC dept calculating the cost of the furlough schemes and all the other costs of this crisis and on the other side of the page will be looking at the savings forecast in order to balance the books and assess what actions will be needed to work through the economic impact. Funding to DWP, councils and hospital will be adjusted as models are updated as we move through the pandemic. And I wouldn't put it past a nefarious politician or SPAD to tally up the cost of 'a few pensioners dying' against the potential votes lost, the reputational impact on the Gov and the money saved.

ToffeeYoghurt · 13/05/2020 01:33

I agree with you Choux
Shame they don't instead scrap wasteful white elephants such as HS2.
Crossrail too. Billions on something designed to cram yet more people into already overcrowded London.

We could immediately make savings by cutting the very generous gold plated retirement packages currently enjoyed by former MPs. No poorly funded Covid infested care homes for them.

Keepdistance · 13/05/2020 01:55

Sorry yes i meant really im corcerned about the gov.
There is a huge conflict of interest. As it is not in the gov interests to keep care home people alive (and they wouldnt admit to hospitals.).
I agree it's concerning how vulnerable they are and tbh i think it may affect peoples decision about moving to care homes.
We cant just be letting people who have years left die.

My great aunt sounds like she will be ok. However trapped in a care home at circa 90 not able to see her son or gc for what could be a year. Possibly confined to a room.
It's awful my own parents shielding the gc will start to forget them and who knows how long even 75yo have left even if they dont get covid?

Changeyname40 · 13/05/2020 03:04

I do have to wade in and say care homes should have whistle blown louder and sooner. Why didn't they? Because they were bound by the same rules and restrictions. They are a service and speaking up risks its staff and business. A few did like the one in Hove.

I must say having not posted on these boards for a while I am shocked by the announcement to extend furlough until October. I did not see that coming. Basically what it reveals is there is no plan. Just hope and time. Great.

Its an absolute disaster, but what amazes me is that we are still ploughing on and buying into it. Let us just get the facts.

  1. We should have done something much sooner. Every day cost lives and millions. When it was already obvious. Why did we not do anything? I truly cannot think of a reason other than laziness, not paying attention to what was actually happening and not wanting to be unpopular.
  1. Care homes. Absolute scandal. Said that before. An unimaginable tragedy and I have no words right now but history is not going to be kind.
  1. Community testing centres, where are they
  1. Masks and public handwashing facilities. I am still unclear why we are not doing these.
  1. Ventilators. Why did we panic about these when we did not match this with the will to actually save lives in care homes? It has just been such a mismatch - what we needed was oxygen but somehow this got less investment.

Dear God can someone not BJ take charge? Even the Torygraph has slated him.

Choux · 13/05/2020 08:37

For me HS2 has always had the stench of a project with a perceived but possibly not real benefit at huge cost. I was surprised the government decided to continue with it last year and wonder if they saw it as a bone to throw at Northerners although it may never get beyond Birmingham.

Crossrail arguably is needed more than ever as social distancing means the tube trains can only operate at 10% of it's 'cram them on' rush hour capacity and a social distanced double decker can only take 15 people.

Crossrail links Heathrow, Oxford St and Canary Wharf as well as going out into the fringes / Home Counties. Those are three places with currently much reduced visitor numbers and when will they return? Will they ever again be at the levels which meant Crossrail was green lighted?

2020 city life is currently not the city life of 2019. A Senior mgr where I work this week said in a very large global meeting (virtual!) there will be no significant return to the office while the virus exists in society. When there is a vaccine / herd immunity / the 'mugger' virus has been arrested will we be so entrenched in this new life that we continue to see working from home and shopping online as the new norm?

I also think caring responsibilities towards the elderly will be recognized far more. If I am not going to the office then I could work regularly from my parents house as they need more help. As lovely as some care homes are I question now whether I want to expose my parents to what I see as the risk of being in one should they need it. Perhaps families will absorb those responsibilities between them where they have jobs that are now home based.

WhoWants2Know · 13/05/2020 09:16

I strongly disagree that care homes weren't whistle blowing right from the beginning. They were shouting from the rooftops that they had no staff because half were isolating, couldn't get PPE and had patients with symptoms who couldn't get tested.

Nobody was listening because everyone was trying to deal with empty shelves at shops and finding toilet roll.

And we saw what had happened in Spain where the army discovered nursing homes were abandoned because staff got sick and reinforcements never arrived.

The government knew that nursing homes were going to be vulnerable. They just didn't act.

YogaLite · 13/05/2020 10:19

And OMG, now the transport sec is telling us NOT to use public transport, where does that leave HS2 and Crossrail or 3rd Heathrow runway???

meercat23 · 13/05/2020 10:43

I strongly disagree that care homes weren't whistle blowing right from the beginning. They were shouting from the rooftops that they had no staff because half were isolating, couldn't get PPE and had patients with symptoms who couldn't get tested.

This, absolutely. I don't know how much more Care Home staff could have done to alert everyone to what was happening. The government spokes people just kept parroting how many items had been delivered. It was only when the deaths started mounted up that they had to listen

Keepdistance · 13/05/2020 10:49

Changey. Completely agree.
It is a S###s###
We need to get BJ out. The conservatives might be ok but he is not making 1 right choice.
Also everyone needs to put their foot down collectively.
If it is unsafe dont do it
Dont go to work teachers.
Dont work in hospitals at all without the proper masks
We all need to force the gov hand.
They could have sorted T&T out. They could have been identifyinh clusters and contacts now of all the cases.
They are lying again saying they are trying to keep it within r.
How does that reflect sending the youngest back.
No it doesnt that reflects starting a second wave. As does not quarantining travellers ... Yet??
Why cant we have antibody tests and they dont even want us to buy them.

MurrayTheMonk · 13/05/2020 13:04

As a care home manager I literally went on national radio at the beginning of this talking about the issues. Care staff across the country were shouting it From the rooftops and were ignored. As is usual.

MurrayTheMonk · 13/05/2020 13:06

Just listened to PMQ's and it actually made me cry-one with relief because at least someone (Keir Starmer) is actually asking the questions about care and two, with fury because Boris blustered, lied and didn't even have the bottle to answer them.

Keepdistance · 13/05/2020 13:17

I know people were saying . It was on tv maybe the 1 show saying the fov would release positive people back to care homes. And said in the document as well.
I just cant see why they would write it down. The whole uk people we are just letting the gov do the wrong thing constantly but where are we?
I understand we cant do a protest right now but something.
Ive signed more than 20 petitions and tried to start one (it was rejected). (Signed petitions about masks/schools etc)
I didnt see any about care homes but honestly we all shouldnt have had to be doing that it was common sense we cannot discharge positive patients - i think a lot of people must have thought surely they wont do that!
Or people just didnt think there was an alternative (like BCF saying hotels etc).

usernotfound0000 · 13/05/2020 13:19

@keepdistance I saw something where they were interviewing hotel owners, can't remember where, Eastbourne maybe? And the owner of a large hotel chain, syaing they were setting up to receive discharged patients. I'm guessing this never happened?

Choux · 13/05/2020 14:09

The holding to account begins. Starmer writes to Johnson asking him to correct the record re advice given on likelihood of care home infections.

I imagine Starmer is just getting started...

twitter.com/bethrigby/status/1260540352408301570?s=21

Worried About Coronavirus- thread 39
Choux · 13/05/2020 14:12

Top Barrister v Top Bluffer every week at PMQs.

Keir's team are going to be busy writing letters every Wednesday afternoon.

Focusanddetermination · 13/05/2020 14:39

So glad he's written this letter, I watched PMQ it was such a clear direct lie.

Swipe left for the next trending thread