Worried About Coronavirus- thread 39

[CrunchyCarrot]

New thread!

Here is the guidance on opening and here is the guidance on implementing protective measures.

"we are being set up to take the blame for any rise of infections if we mix with family (still forbidden I know), yet surely the greater risk will come from the opening of workplaces where social distancing may not be 100% feasible nor adhered to.

I'm just flummoxed - I'll be sticking to the rules as I understand them of course, partly to protect the NHS and the vulnerable, and partly to avoid being fined - because that's another thing - raised fines"

Dystopia!!

The gov are crazy.
Is it because they are happy for individuals and companies to pay but not the gov?

It makes no sense.
1 vulnerable not shielded wfh (except so many incl teachers wont be able to do this)
2 dont need to wear face masks they dont work (except for hcp?!?)
But now wear a home made one but only in supermarkets or on PT.
3 go to work but dont use PT.

I really want to emigrate but dont want to get on a plane.

Should think lots of teachers may look to Escape to Aus/NZ....
I would be taking a sabbatical either way.
As personally i get really really cross with - lies and incompetence and do as i say not as i do.
This is setting us up for strikes from transport workers (making masks only voluntary on PT/increasing passengers/school kids) and some teachers. You cannot have some people allowed to wear masks in their job and not others. Minimum it should be personal risk and choice and personally i would go for compulsory if you cannot stay 2m away.

The main issue with a lot of this is relying on other peoples behaviour

• your child washing hands
• other parents not sending in sick kids
• even kids realising that they need to say if they dont feel well (the temps are not high and a kid wont say about sore throat)
• with an adult if they had just had CV they probably would still be quite distant from others after 7/14 days a kid will be straight back to nose picking and putting stuff in mouth.
• i had a thread on norovirus wondering how many would send back earlier than 48h and many would do. Loads of people ignore rules and even aside from that with everyone at work some will have to use PT.

The rules need to be an employee needs to be able to choose to wear ppe but also may be required

news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-care-homes-faced-funding-cut-if-they-didnt-take-in-covid-19-patients-11986578
Coronavirus: Care homes faced funding cut if they didn't take in COVID-19 patients

Sky News has seen letters which show local authorities threatened to withhold so-called uplift payments during the outbreak.

When i posted something about care homes in the fb group i was accused of slander and spreading poison.

Thanks for the link Red

Countries taking stricter measures now will see their economies bounce back quicker. The inevitable bad second wave we'll sprinting towards is going to wreak economic damage as much as it will cause avoidable deaths.

Seeing the photos today of London's packed tube trains and the ongoing flow of airport arrivals (still no checks or quarantine) it's clear London will soon suffer another bad peak.

The government seem to have it in for Londoners. Is there unconscious racism involved?

Warning people away from sparsely populated beauty spots yet leaving London unprotected with wide open Heathrow airport (hundreds of thousands have arrived unchecked since lockdown). Encouraging people back to work when they know London more than anywhere else relies on public transport.

I can't remember whether it was this thread or another. I've been skim reading to catch up. Someone posted yesterday asking why we're the only country showing no data re recovered patients. I expect that's because, unlike many places, we're not treating with drugs that can help (particularly when given early). I suspect our survival rate is lower than many other countries.

RTB It's got to be criminal what the local authorities did? Knowingly sending patients infected with a deadly highly contagious disease into care homes? Not just knowingly but deliberately. It's beyond comprehension that this was (is still?) allowed.

@Reastie Yes, friends and family abroad are indeed looking in horror, confusion, and concern at the UK. Like you say it's England that's worst. The Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish governments have more common sense and morals.

Im especially at the advice to travel to work on a bike

If people live in a small flat they will have nowhere to store it. When you walk into the hallway of our flat its no narrow you cant carry a bag of shopping in each hand. A lot of places just havent got room to store it

And bikes are NOT allowed to be left in communal hallways post Grenfell.

Toffee in pretty sure it breeches human rights legislation if nothing else for willful endangering of life.

These are the same local authorities which will over see the return of children to schools.

I can't understand that govt policy

In Germany, when infected people from care homes are discharged from hospital,
they are put into hotels which have been taken over by the government
and staffed by carers in PPE - who don't work anywhere else.

it is a pretty obvious solution, what with so many empty hotels desperate for money too

Has anyone been using the zoe covid tracker? It seems to have stopped updating the number of cases in the last 2 days. The day before the number of cases increased from 230k to 245k which is a bit worrying.

Helena I was posting about the care home situation early April too and was shouted down by lots of people that 'they' wouldn't allow that... I think it just seemed too shocking to be true. I would love to know the list of local authorities, I hope it comes out, willing to bet mine is on there and I hope someone takes a case against them.

Watched BJ's statement in Parliament and the Qs from the general public last night and was struck by the number of times I talked about how well the British public had heard and observed the stay at home message. Almost like he was disappointed...

Toffee-but in some form the unsafe discharge from hospital to care homes has been going on for years . The amount of Friday afternoon arguments I've had with ward sisters and social workers trying to discharge very very unwell patients before the weekend so they can free up a bed-the times I've had to take respite patients who were infectious (flu, hospital born infections ie MRSA, other illnesses-all serious risks to my other vulnerable service users) with inadequate notes to even prepare staff because it's 'in your contract'- it happens all the time and this is just a continuation of that. Local authorities have you over a barrel as they have nomination rights in lots of homes and you have to re-tender for the contract every 3-4 years. (Not so much in the posher private homes but in the half to 3/4's of all care homes that are run as not for profit usually by trusts or housing associations). The re tender process involves shaving your hourly rate (somehow) and they will also look at your bed admittance over the last few years. (Though I doubt they would admit to it). I'm currently managing adult LD services with (relatively) adequate funding. Older people's services are stripped to the bare bones and have been for years.

Germany, when infected people from care homes are discharged from hospital
they are put into hotels which have been taken over by the government
and staffed by carers in PPE - who don't work anywhere else
It is the same in Ireland, though it hasn't prevented the virus getting into other care homes from staff and agency staff moving around. I'm sure it has helped a bit.

I wish we had gone for a much tighter lockdown. I did this yesterday with the graphs from worldometers and you can see Italy have actually got somewhere while we are just meaninglessly bobbing around the same numbers with small reductions. I've been fine all the way through this but this is making me pretty sad today. What a shitshow.

I got that impression too oldwasherwoman. It seems as though they were completely flummoxed that the general public had complied to the stay home message. 'We told you to stay home and shock horror you all did'

The care home scandal is nothing short of deliberate negligence. It can't be labelled as an unfortunate situation as those who made these decisions had all the scientific evidence available regarding the virus.

The 111 advice that was given to stay home until you were already critically ill is another scandal. The UK had the advantage of seeing how China treated infected patients but in so many cases people were left gasping at home.

Today thousands of people are again getting on crowded underground trains. They don't have the choice of driving, cycling or walking. We were only yesterday aftertion advised to wear a face covering on public transport. How many new infections will there be this week?

lubey thank you that graph = a thousand words

Agree re the 111 advice. The reason hospitals weren't overwhelmed was because people were left to suffer/die at home.

I guess we see what the next few weeks bring and whether its been gradual enough to avoid another sharp rise. I hope so for all our sakes.

This looks so organised from New York. I wonder when/if our system will be up and running?

I wish we had gone for a much tighter lockdown. I did this yesterday with the graphs from worldometers and you can see Italy have actually got somewhere while we are just meaninglessly bobbing around the same numbers with small reductions

Case numbers for the UK are meaningless since up until recently we only tested hospital admissions. The testing has been ramped up over past few weeks so it is not surprising that the absolute number of C19 positives flattened.

It is more useful to compare death trends and both Italy and the UK are moving in the same direction.

It is not obvious that the stringency of the lockdown makes much difference to the C19 transmission. Some measures (e.g. work from home, mass gatherings ban) are clearly more effective than others (e.g. outdoor exercise ban). In fact, the latter is likely to be harmful in the medium to long run since it contributes to obesity. High BMI is deemed to be a C19 risk factor.

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But doesn't Lubey's graph show that we have achieved what we set out to do - flatten the curve without the high points, where the NHS wouldn't cope?

So far.......

I think a huge issue is the release of the data on who is at risk.
That has made the selfish no t give a crap . And tbh probably reflects why BJ caught it himself. He wasnt worried about dying. The othering of people with underlying conditions as they should just su ck up risk of dying. Or slightly older 50/60 yo but whilst saying the shielding should stay in. Are not realising it is all guesswork some vulnerable are more vulnerable than the shielded. People with high bp are at higher risk, its an underlying condition but not even in vulnerable category...
Same with young kids people can now be seem not giving a crap about the teachers or ta etc.

Hosptial no, s are so low and i feel this is not right. Why, how etc i have drawn my own conclusions but am open to being wrong. I hope this is looked at when all this is over. Also if is am reading the graphs correctly the excess deaths for England is much greater than other countries the government keep saying this is the correct guage of how we have done and it looks awful to me.

@lubeybooby That chart is eye opening.
Are the reduced days the weekend.
Today's numbers will be telling.
I know to me most people are strangers but it's worrying seen unprotected retail staff, security guards, the pictures of travellers on the UK tubes. Once the shops open here Monday it will be mayhem.
People have lists for argos.