Attitudes changing?

[CathyandHeathcliff]

Has anybody noticed attitudes changing over the past few days?

It seems to have gone from Facebook comments on articles calling for a stricter lockdown and so on, to calling for lockdown to be lifted sooner rather than later, comments about the economy failing and weighing up the balance.

I’m not saying I agree with all this but I can see why it’s happening

Our children are going to be hugely affected and I think there’s been two deaths

How many children have died or suffered because of the lockdown

Ps I'm educated, understand the science and can understand statistics especially the one that 94% of those in intensive care have underlying health problems

I agree with the comments on page 1 that the Gov is not communicating clearly and moving the goalposts. We were told the lockdown was specifically to 'flatten the curve' (horrible expression but clear to visualise) but since then we have had many other things thrown into the mix and now they are talking about 5 tests ffs.

The first reason was the clearest and should be adhered to. The NHS has demonstrated that it is able to cope and should even be bringing patients in earlier to give them a better chance of survival and decrease hospital stay. We also have a much clearer idea of the spread of the virus, the hotspots and those areas, like mine in South Devon, that have only been minimally affected - our hospital could take patients from elsewhere if hospital become overwhelmed on a 2nd peak.

We have to start returning to some normality or our economy and society will start to break down. That's no small thing

Toffee we still have no proof that a stricter lockdown was better than what we have........

"How many children have died or suffered because of the lockdown"

There will be hundreds probably, if not thousands. Children that are ill and cant get treatment, children who cant have operations, children who need speech therapy. The list goes on actually. Same for adults.

A slightly shorter version. Unlike other countries we're nowhere near ready to ease lockdown. We need to be at the stage of mass testing, sufficient PPE for frontline staff, enough hospital staff, equipment, beds, and drugs, and masks for the public. Just like those other countries (all with much lower death rates than us) people refer to who are starting to (slowly) ease their lockdowns.

I trust the Bank of England governor to know a bit about the economy. More than Sarah or Dave who want to do whatever they like and to hell with the consequences for them and everyone around them. They can't accept reality and think a highly contagious deadly virus will go away because they pretend it isn't real. The pandemic won't stop because someone stamps their feet and tells the nasty virus to go away.

Some might not care about the very large proportion (approx 30-40%) of the population at increased risk. Morals aside, as the Bank of England governor says, the economic damage longer-term would be far worse if we have a second wave than if we stay in lockdown slightly longer now. Stop, start, stop, start work with massive amounts of sickness and deaths (including NHS staff who therefore won't be around to help others) will devastate the economy. Nowhere will want to do business with one of the worse infected countries in the world.

We can't stay in lockdown forever. Of course not, but we can and should have the foresight to limit further damage by buying the time we desperately need. Get mass testing, get PPE, masks, staff, equipment, and then we can think about it. In the meantime, yes no guarantee yet, but it's all looking very promising on the vaccine and drug treatments front. There won't be availability for everyone immediately but just enough for frontline staff (and then the most vulnerable) is a good start. It's very possible this could be by September/October.

Hadenoughfornow I'd say much lower death rates is pretty good evidence. France, for example, has around half the deaths we do. I actually wasn't arguing for a stricter lockdown. Just pointing out we can't compare to countries who might be ready to start easing their lockdowns (which don't yet include France).

we simply can’t curtail freedoms indefinitely and allow the future of entire generations to be blighted in order to protect a minority of the population.

Yes we can, actually, if we are a compassionate country. North Korea and China have a different approach, more like the one you seem to favour. Won't happen here, fortunately.

Children won't die from lack of speech therapy, but Covid could kill them. Let's not trivialise the situation.

The future of entire generations? Get a grip. It's likely to be a year or so and not entire generations, that just sounds daft. Exaggerating your case makes a nonsense of it.

Whoops I forgot to C&P this -

There will be hundreds probably, if not thousands. Children that are ill and cant get treatment, children who cant have operations, children who need speech therapy. The list goes on actually. Same for adults.

Before my comment about speech therapy.

They can't accept reality and think a highly contagious deadly virus will go away because they pretend it isn't real. The pandemic won't stop because someone stamps their feet and tells the nasty virus to go away

That's a pretty disgusting parody of people's concerns on the lockdown

I'd say much lower death rates is pretty good evidence. France, for example, has around half the deaths we do

So what are the UK number of deaths and France number of deaths.

Most of our deaths are people who most likely caught CV before lockdown. So I don't think you can really say that.

www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html

Interesting article which should (but probably won’t) put to bed the idea that “people would have died anyway” or “we are all overreacting”.
The takeaway is that in virtually every country, death are likely being under reported. For example, deaths over the past five weeks in New York are 300% above what is normal. A staggering figure.
Similarly in France and the U.K., deaths are a full 30% above what is considered normal. In these countries the governments are likely undercounting Covid deaths by at least 50% (ie 20,000 deaths in the U.K. is likely at least 30,000)

Children won't die from lack of speech therapy, but Covid could kill them. Let's not trivialise the situation.

Lack of speech therapy could result in a child being bullied due to their speech. Bullying has resulted in children heartbreakingly committing suicide.

Why should your child take priority over my child. Why should you child who you can keep in be more important than a child who needs treatment for cancer. Why should your child be more important than a child forced into poverty, or who is living in a domestic Hell and has no one to reach out too.

We want to keep you an your children safe. But we can't have other children ignored.

@sarahinaccounts.....imagine for one minute struggling to speak and not being able to get speech therapy. Just try and imagine that if you can. It's extremely important to those that need it. People who have strokes badly need it, people who have brain injury badly need it. Imagine recovering from a stroke and not being able to get physio or anything you need. Speech therapy is perhaps not as important as cancer testing etc etc, but it is important. People need to get back on track. People can get these treatments without bothering you at home. Try start thinking of the rest of the world when you are calling people for everything.

We are really really not going to be on lockdown for a year or so.

Cam I tried to read that article.

And is the UK double the French death toll?

It is the total number of deaths that are important - not what's on the Death Certificate.

Sunshine The Bank of England governor is likely more qualified than most to advise on this. I think taking heed of his advice is a good idea. Especially as it's basic common sense.

How many children are affected? The mental health impact alone of losing your mum or dad will be utterly devastating. It's so very sad to read about the young nurses who've died leaving behind young children. All the other deaths too. Lots of young children are going to need very good mental health bereavement support. And I can't possibly begin to imagine how the parents who've lost their children to this must feel. Only a minority of children have died thankfully and let's keep it that way by ensuring we're ready before ending lockdown.

We have to start returning to some normality Yes, which is why we need to do what other countries are doing. Mass testing, enough equipment, PPE, masks for the public, before easing lockdown. What do people think will happen if we don't and as a result we have a bad second wave? You can't magic away the virus. What do you think will happen to the economy then?

Children waiting for speech therapy, other non emergency hospital procedures. Who will provide their care? If over 100 healthcare staff have died whilst we're in lockdown, what do you think will happen if we lift it early and have the resulting second wave?

Precisely because we need to return to normality (as much as it's possible during a pandemic) we mustn't mess up when we ease lockdown. Too soon, before we're ready and and that return to normality will be much further away.

Fliesandpies Your area, South Devon, won't have capacity to take second wave patients if lockdown ends prematurely. Why do you think your area has low number of cases? Because of lockdown. You won't even have enough staff for local. As healthcare staff are at higher risk they're all be off sick (or dead). I'd also question whether the NHS really does have capacity now. Many patients are being refused hospital admittance until at very serious stages (with less chance of survival). People are dying at home and care home residents aren't being given proper medical care. Clearly something's gone wrong. We need to sort the mess out before looking at easing lockdown.

Do people never think about what more haste, less speed means?

Btw okiedokieme 94% in ICU have underlying conditions? And your point is? 30-40% of the population has underlying conditions that increase their risk from Covid. That's rather a lot of us.

In the U.K. there had been 17,000 excess deaths up to April 10 - at which point only 10,000 Covid deaths had been reported.
In New York alone 17,000 excess deaths.
It certainly ain’t “the flu”.

Keep the lockdown

Someone I know said their local garden centre was opening up soon and the staff could volunteer to go in if they wanted! Gradually people will go back out again to places other than food shops.
Attitudes will change over the weeks I guess.

France, for example, has around half the deaths we do.

Except France does not. It will be useful if you could please double check your sources.

I suspect you are comparing the FT projection (41,000) with the official French stats (~21,000 - hospitals and care homes) but the FT number is (1) only an estimate and (2) it includes all excess deaths, including deaths from the lockdown rather than from COVID-19 (e.g. people who die because they are reluctant to seek medical help for other critical issues).

41k and 21k are apples and oranges.

Hospital deaths for France and UK are much closer (13.5k and 18.6k respectively) although up until April 10 (the latest cut off date available for ONS) France has been running with higher numbers of care home deaths.

FliesandPies It's not a parody. It's an observation. People seem to think pretending it's gone away has made it go away for real. They're talking about wanting full hospital services back asap. They don't seem able to comprehend why that's impossible. They can't understand what contagious means. It takes just one infected patient or staff member to spread the virus through a hospital. Cancer patients, stroke patients, all very very vulnerable to Covid. Add in the huge numbers of staff off sick (or dead) in a second wave and you're looking at waiting a very long time for any medical care.

Premature ending of initial lockdown will only postpone any kind of return to normality. You're end up waiting even longer for medical care, the economy will be even more badly impacted, more jobs lost, longer to recover.

Why are people not calling for the (relatively simple) measures required to be ready to ease lockdown safety? Mass testing, enough PPE, masks, etc. Then we'd be closer to what they (and all of us) want. A safe easing of lockdown.

Seriously, more haste less speed is so very relevant here.

@SarahInAccounts

You may think I’m minimising the plight that those who are more vulnerable are in; I would in turn argue that you are massively understating the impact that a ‘a year or so’ in lockdown would have on the economy - entire industries destroyed; many of the things that make life full and worthwhile (sport, theatre, music performance) just gone; much less money to fund the public sector; a cohort of children emerging with mental health issues, chronic health problems and poorer educational prospects - that’s not hyperbole, that will be our reality if lockdown continues beyond a couple of months. The economy doesn’t stand alone, it’s inextricably linked to people’s lives and if we just allow it to collapse many people’s lives will collapse with it.

And that’s without addressing the civil liberties angle of many of our freedoms having being curtailed indefinitely by this lockdown.

And if, as is entirely possible, no effective vaccine can be found, what then? We shelter indoors forever?

I’m not even proposing that we end the lockdown now, but the suggestion that we could sustain it beyond another month or so is for the birds.