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Why are deaths in care homes and at home still not being reported in England?

138 replies

alloutoffucks · 14/04/2020 14:14

Scotland now report how many people have died in care homes and at home with covid 19. I know there is a delay in being able to report this because of death certificates. But in England we are still not getting these figures.
I suspect a lot of people have died in care homes and at home. Some have been reported in the press like the young twenty year old near where I live found dead at home. But this figure includes anyone terminally ill, frail and with more serious underlying conditions. These people are largely not being admitted to hospital. So they die at home with carers or in a care home. Given these are mainly very vulnerable people. I suspect the mortality rate is high and the number of people who have died is high.
Why are we still not being told how many people?

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 18/04/2020 10:03

I suspect there was a lot of frustration over the changes that France made. But rmember they had a week or so longer and started to include that data when they had enough of it, as we have done now!

It was always unlikely that any one nation, with broadly similar populations, taking broadly similar steps, would have dissimilar numbers.

i wanted to know where these extras were then added into the gov daily update totals - people were telling me they were added in - where? When? I could not see this. The ONS data was always being used by the various anayiss teams. It was always published publicly. It just wasn't the measure being used daily to track/compare the infection rate, broadly in line with other countries.

That measure was one of convenience, never intended to be the only measure. That's another thing I dislike some journalistic reactions for. Instead of them doing the obvious and explaining the ONS data they either chose to or really did not understand what was happening and then embarked on another witch hunt. Had they actually done any journalism, let their own science leads do the work, they could have outlined the real data themselves, been part of a real time information feed. But most of them chose not to!

I mean, they only have one job... and many are choosing a weird avenues of investigation, if they want to be seen as serious journalists! You only have to listen to the ones who have been doing a proper job, hear the questions they ask, to work that out!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 18/04/2020 10:07

I will use the total number of deaths in March April etc compared to previous years. So you will rely on the ONS data sets and anaysis.

That's what it is there for, why it is publicly available, weekly. It's just that the majority of the UK population has never had any reason to look for it!

Odd what we will all become semi expert in during such shitty times!

(@milveycrohn sorry of that reads a bit tersely, I don't mean it to, I think relying on the ONS data for a bigger picture is a good thing!)

Humphriescushion · 18/04/2020 10:10

France started adding in the care homes around the 2nd of april so around two weeks after lockdown. The uk is now around the week 3 or maybe four. Something is there now though at least. Yes i know the ons figures were not used in the daily update hence why i kept getting confused when it seemed to be alluded that they were and the experts saying they were tracking france.

kazza446 · 18/04/2020 10:15

The problem with figures from care homes is that they’re not accurate. I work in the sector and there are no processes in place to have symptomatic people in care homes swabbed. Believe me, I’ve been trying to sort this all week for 3 patients with dementia! Additionally, we are seeing GP’s certifying deaths as covid when people aren’t showing any signs of covid. This horrifies me as we could have a potential Harold shipman in our midst again and no one would know. All I do know, is that vulnerable people are being led like lambs to the slaughter. Hospitals have discharged people without testing, screamed at care home managers demanding they’re taken into their home without consideration for other vulnerable residents. Homes aren’t always able to self isolate people because of dementia/ lack of cognition and then covid just spreads through the homes like wildfire. I’ve seen homes with outbreaks still taking people in even though their death rate is rising daily.

Fanthorpe · 18/04/2020 14:06

You say there are no systems in place but there is guidance;

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/878099/Admission_and_Care_of_Residents_during_COVID-19_Incident_in_a_Care_Home.pdf

According to this if you have suspected cases in your care setting you should contact your local HPT, are they not responding?

kazza446 · 18/04/2020 14:36

HPT, CCG, IPC team in my region have been running around like headless chickens all week trying to find out how residents get tested. Still no solution and they confirmed Friday no process yet in place...

Fanthorpe · 18/04/2020 14:46

Because they don’t have kits available to them?

Fanthorpe · 18/04/2020 14:52

I believe you by the way, I’m not doubting what you’re saying. I’ve visited a range of care homes so I’m under no illusion.

Obviously there will be a range of experiences as there are a range of settings, but it’s very upsetting to think about all the fear and death because those co-ordinating the response nationally and regionally are not being effective at a local level.

Lifeisabeach09 · 18/04/2020 14:59

@kazza446,

Everything you've said is exactly what is going on at the care home I work in. Only we have a very supportive GP who was able to get testing for a small group of residents and staff but this was only last week.

We have had an incredible number of deaths recently and a number of staff testing positive but still we are taking untested admissions from the hospital/rehab units, jeopardising both the person coming in and the residents already in the home.

One staff member only had mild symptoms but was off for seven days. She was tested on day 5 (off work) but returned to work on day 8. Management said she was ok to come back and she couldn't afford to be off as she only gets SSP. I feel 7 days was not long enough.

Continuing admissions and not insisting staff take a full two weeks off (with mild symptoms), the lack of testing, delays in isolating residents and, generally, poor management and communication where I work, I feel has to led to an escalation of mortality.

It makes me very angry.

kazza446 · 18/04/2020 15:31

Lifeisabeach09, there’s new guidance out now on admissions into care homes. It’s the social care action plan. Completely conflicts with the discharge to assess guidance though! I’m hoping that managers and owners of homes are strong enough to refuse admissions.

I saw some further guidance yesterday through our regional PHE team which stated staff shouldn’t return to work until they’ve had 5 days symptom free. I’ve also heard is managers forcing staff to come into work, completely disregarding if they have any symptoms.

Our vulnerable people and their value are just being forgotten about. 😩

Lifeisabeach09 · 18/04/2020 16:10

@kazza446, I'll have a look for it and give it a read, thanks.

Lifeisabeach09 · 20/04/2020 10:03

Thanks @kazza446. Keep laughing and stay well.

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