Why are deaths in care homes and at home still not being reported in England?

[alloutoffucks]

Scotland now report how many people have died in care homes and at home with covid 19. I know there is a delay in being able to report this because of death certificates. But in England we are still not getting these figures.
I suspect a lot of people have died in care homes and at home. Some have been reported in the press like the young twenty year old near where I live found dead at home. But this figure includes anyone terminally ill, frail and with more serious underlying conditions. These people are largely not being admitted to hospital. So they die at home with carers or in a care home. Given these are mainly very vulnerable people. I suspect the mortality rate is high and the number of people who have died is high.
Why are we still not being told how many people?

That percentage ties in with France organ.
@User7764217 France started adding the figures on 2nd april, hopefully the uk will do the same.

I've only been reading online news, not looking at the ONS or anything.

I've seen reported that:
hospital deaths are counted for comparison with other countries.
An additional 10% of that are deaths happening in the community, care homes etc.

That number will go up as a proportion though. Once it gets into a care home it's brutal. At the point those numbers were collected, it hadn't got that far. Eventually it will, obviously, and that will bump up the numbers quite a lot.

Why are deaths in care homes and at home still not being reported in England?

Simple answer as others have said is. It is being reported. By the ONS. And to anyone saying it is therefore being kept secret, really is just lying now. Its out there, if you can be bothered to look for it, or watch the news. Failing that, Chris Whitty said the exact same thing in yesterdays briefing - so maybe watch those

Every single death will be registered.

It doesn't really matter what the daily toll is - too many people are dying. We know that.

There is no conspiracy theory I am sure.

Even if a death is not reported as Covid we still know about the death.

Look at the totals and work it out for yourself.

I love that posters have such trust in the system to report all deaths, however, it appears that not all care home deaths are being recorded as Coronavirus related. A whistleblower has reported this to channel 4 news.

Plus remember that not all people that live in care homes are elderly. There are thousands of people with learning disabilities in care homes.

Every single death will be registered.

It doesn't really matter what the daily toll is - too many people are dying. We know that.

Exactly this

Right from the start, from all countries, the daily numbers are not supposed to be taken as exact. Rather they are a pointer to how numbers rise and how the curve, hopefully, flattens.

Of course all deaths will be registered but unless they are flagged as Coronavirus related it doesn’t give a true picture.

The daily death figures could be on a downward curve prompting cries to reopen schools, when care home deaths are rising. The staff often have no or completely inadequate PPE.

Yes, as said 54% of Irish deaths are related to care homes so only 10% more in the UK would seem strange.

We don't really know. How many care home patients got transferred into Hospital at that time? Bearing in mind this was a couple of weeks ago and not now.

How many extra have died in care homes or in the community in the period - both Covid and non Covid?

How many extra have died in hospital than normal? Could it be that not all Covid deaths are testing positive?

There are obviously questions to be answered.

I don't know why its so high for care homes in Ireland and not for the UK.

I would expect that the percentage would increase but hopefully not to that much.

Is it not a Dr who normally signs the Death Certificate if no post mortem is required? Surely we would know if there had been specific instructions to them to cover things up?

I love that posters have such trust in the system to report all deaths WTF!!

ALL deaths are recorded, they always have been, ffs!

A whistleblower has reported this to channel 4 news. Ah! Yes, the person who isn't a GP, who doesn't write death certificates and doesn't know the difference between OF and WITH or that the ONS data will pick up any additional excess mortality rates and they will be attributed to CV anyway - once all the figures are in and we are out the other side of this. Cos that's how such stuff works. In real time, with analysis coming after all data is in!

But excess deaths are nit being attributed to CV. They are being attributed to ill people with other things too afraid to go to A and E.

And elderly people admitted to hospital in early March, were being sent back to care homes without testing, even though the official acceptance that some may have had covid 19. Lots of people dying in care homes may have died of this. But we would not know.
I know locally care homes are reporting a lot of people suddenly dying in them.

I mean deaths being recorded as being Coronavirus related. Not that deaths wouldn’t be recorded.

If the system is so transparent why are care providers highlighting that the death rate is much higher than reported? Not having the figures underplays how many people are dying in care homes.

Because there is no way for all the deaths that happen today in care homes to be notified in time to PHE for it to appear in the briefings. There is no system to collate them. How would it work?

You know all the NHS ‘bean counters’ that people love to complain about? Producing data is what they do. Often on shonky outdated IT equipment. Care homes are outside that system, mostly run by people who experience death at a much lower rate, who employ varying numbers of HCP’s, using community health services.

Scotland has just published their NRS data up to 12th April. 25% of deaths are in care homes

France does it. They get added on when they have the information. If find it incredible that the govt scientist keep saying we track france when they arent.

So why can Scotland do it and not England?
Or is it just a way to keep figures of people dying lower?

I don't think the data will be fully processed for a while yet.
We know nursing home residents are vulnerable- the residents are vulnerable by definition, whether they live there or in the community.
We know residents of nursing homes are highly unlikely to recover should they get to the point of needing ventilation.
This is why nursing homes have been closed to everyone but staff.

The scandal for me isn't that residents are dying in care homes, it's that they are being cared for there by people on the minimum wage with inadequate PPE.

They are dying because hospitals sent some back home to die and other residents caught it. Yes it is a scandal that so many are dying. They should be in hospital with other corona patients to protect other care home residents.

Once someone in a nursing home has CV then it's too late to protect other residents, surely? The carers and residents will all have been exposed either to the original source or to the poorly resident.

Then why send people from hospital back to care homes to die who could have CV? That is what happened.
Personally I think it is corporate manslaughter.

So why can Scotland do it and not England? Numbers. Of people and care homes. And they have only just started doing it regularly.

Or is it just a way to keep figures of people dying lower? No! Numbers, of people and care homes. And the official UK measure is hospital figures, as are/were most other countries until recently. We may change, if the data is robust enough. But, again, the figures aren't hidden and they are mentioned, clarified every press meeting.

But excess deaths are nit being attributed to CV. They are being attributed to ill people with other things too afraid to go to A and E Only if the attendng GP doesn't put CV in the death certificate. Afterwards the figures will be analysed and a more clear picture will emerge.

Then why send people from hospital back to care homes to die who could have CV? That is what happened. Because, at the time, they were still trying to keep ICU beds clear (that nasty idea that they should be kept for people who had a good chance of survival) and they had the idea that it would be possible to keep it under control in a care home setting. Hasn't been done for a while, as far as I can see, but am probably wrong.

And the government isn't a corporation,...

Look, it isn't perfect. Nothing can be. People will die, will be left in dire financial straits. But there has to be something in place and it is OK to see better ways with hindsight, but unless there was the intention to harm or a clear ignoring of the science, guidelines etc, then we all have to live with the fact that governments across the world will make what we later see as errors.

Different systems in place in different countries and most don't wish to change in the middle of a crisis.
It's useful to know which numbers include care homes

Official deaths toll includes care homes

Yes:
France, Germany, Ireland, Belgium

No:
UK, Italy, Spain

There is also a case that the very elderly, frail or unwell should be cared for at the end of their life in somewhere familiar, comfortable and caring. People with dementia can become distressed and agitated in a new environment. Many people would not survive intensive care and it would be cruel to inflict such brutal treatment.

HOWEVER, I am aware that many, many care home residents are alert, well and have quality of life. I would hope they will get hospital treatment if they need and want it.