Why are deaths in care homes and at home still not being reported in England?

[alloutoffucks]

Scotland now report how many people have died in care homes and at home with covid 19. I know there is a delay in being able to report this because of death certificates. But in England we are still not getting these figures.
I suspect a lot of people have died in care homes and at home. Some have been reported in the press like the young twenty year old near where I live found dead at home. But this figure includes anyone terminally ill, frail and with more serious underlying conditions. These people are largely not being admitted to hospital. So they die at home with carers or in a care home. Given these are mainly very vulnerable people. I suspect the mortality rate is high and the number of people who have died is high.
Why are we still not being told how many people?

Except it was not with hindsight. A carer on another thread said she complained bitterly to management about covid 19 elderly person sent back to her care home and how it would kill lots of other residents. It sadly did. If a carer can understand this I simply do not believe that highly qualified public health officials could not. It is not hindsight.
The truth is yes they were saving beds for younger people. An elderly person is unlikely anyway to be put in ICU, but they could be given a bed and oxygen. And that meant sacrificing older people by sending them back to care homes. They knew this would happen.
It stretches incredulity to say that no one could foresee this. So either deliberate or incredible incompetence.

@cathyandclare I know it is distressing for someone with dementia to be in hospital. This is about safeguarding other care home residents who are well. But no one with the power cared enough about them to stop them getting infected and dying.

The truth is yes they were saving beds for younger people. Which they said they would do from the start! And they had a handful of reasons why they chose to do that. Some of which make more sense than other, are more palateable than others.

By hindsight I meant that the number of ICU beds hasn't been swamped as quickly as feared, not that the decision was only obviously unpleasant with hindsight!

You are going to have to accept that unpleasant decisions have been made, with the best of intentions for the population as a whole. Its fucking awful, and I hope my arents and aunt, all of whom have regular carers and are in 12 week isolation, don't fall foul of any of it. But if they do... well, that will be a shit time that I will have to deal with. But I don't think I would blame the government for it. I'd blame the virus... even though I know I would feel very bitter about it.

"Then why send people from hospital back to care homes to die who could have CV?"

Because they came from the care home with CV, so it's already there.

If they caught CV in hospital, that would only become obvious later so no need to prevent them going home.
If they have Cv on arrival in hospital then they caught in the care home. It's too late.

"The truth is yes they were saving beds for younger people. "

From the start it's been known that being ventilated is a last chance effort that you need to be in good previous health to survive.
Now they are starting to think ventilation is making things worse.

It's really not clear that elderly infirm people should be put on a ventilator even if unlimited ventilators are available.

The decision that old people did not matter was always an unpleasant one.
You test people before sending them back to a care home.
This is basic infection control

@picklemewalnuts Which is why I specifically said they would be unlikely to be in ICU, but should have been given a bed and oxygen.

Yes, care home residents are being tested.

Not all are being tested.

Only up to five residents in a care home are being tested to confirm an outbreak if a group are symptomatic. Single cases may be tested. This is meant to be in the process of changing.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/878099/Admission_and_Care_of_Residents_during_COVID-19_Incident_in_a_Care_Home.pdf

In the care home I work in, we've had several suspected covid residents. Seen by GP who confirmed they were likely covid.
None have been swabbed so far.
We've had two members of staff who were tested Monday. Drive through testing. Results back in 48 hours. Covid-positive.

Because they came from the care home with CV, so it's already there.

Not necessarily.

I speak anecdotally but where I work (large care home), a number of residents going to hospital for common occurrences (trauma from falls) have ended up staying on wards for, say, fractures and then returned to the home a week-10 days later. Our local hospital was only testing for covid if the patient had respiratory symptoms or temp. So these returning residents were not tested and could have quite easily picked it up during their stay in hospital.

Also, some nursing homes are still admitting new residents from hospital (bed blockers, for instance) and from the community WITHOUT testing. Please see the PHE guidance I posted above.

OP, people have given you a myriad of information and how to find out about care home death data, you're simply choosing not to believe any of it, when it's you that asked.

Have you been in a care home in England, have you worked in one? They have next to no IT, it is non-existent - everything is recorded on paper. Care homes can't just submit that information each day like the data analysts can in hospital trusts. As such, there's a process outside of the home when a death happens and yes, it's probably a flawed one and yes, it results in a delay but the data is NOT being hidden. Other countries (including Scotland) might not have these barriers.

OP. Have you raised your concerns with your governing body, local health authorities or the police.

People in care homes are generally not getting tested. I don't know why the government continue to lie about this

From Faisal Islam:

Interesting context from Belgium, which is including suspected cases in care homes - and now reports officially more Covid fatalities in total in its care homes than in hospitals:

For 1st time Belgian figures show more people have died of CV19 in care homes (2,387) than in hospital (2,379)
There will be a reckoning and soul searching has begun - see previous
Otherwise, hospitals discharges are out numbering admissions, bed occupation is falling sharply

What lie? They said that testing in care homes has started now, today. Some were brought forward because weekend take up was low.

They had testing previously, but only under certain circumstances. Now they have more tests available there are, as they said they would 3 weeks ago, extending tests to care homes having started with hospital staff and patients first.

We may all have reasons to dislike this, but it is best to stick to what ministers said rather than a headline hunting journalists spin on it.

They said that testing in care homes has started now, today

No, they claimed they have been testing people in care homes from the start and throughout - the announcement today was about a ramp-up in testing as they claimed they used to stop testing once 2 or more people in a care home tested positive on the assumption that it would inevitably spread to the rest. Now they will test everybody

The part about having been testing from the start is a lie. Matt Hancock repeated it in his interview on R4's Today programme (listen on iPlayer if you don't believe me) and Oxbridge Jenny Harries also has made the same claim repeatedly (as well as claiming NHS staff have enough PPE and there were no shortages)

Erm, nothing you just typed disagrees with anything I posted.

There has been testing in care homes, under specific circumstances.

Today they start increasing testing in care homes, with less specific circumstances.

As they said they would 3 weeks ago.

If five people in a care home have tested positive, I don't see the need to test the sixth, seventh, eighth people who become ill. Save tests for places where there is more doubt about a person's diagnosis.

A localish care home has been mentioned on local radio as a number of the people who live there have died and more are ill.

The ONs numbers are not clear. However todays graphs on the briefing now have a line tracking the ons figures. It is obviously far behind but at least now will include all deaths. And it should stop the govt saying they are tracking france. france, belguim and ireland have included the figures ( albeit from france with a backlog) so saying that it is not possible is not correct.

My grandad died two days ago in a care home. Two weeks ago another resident was returned to the care home after being in hospital with suspected cv. They had tested her for cv in hospital, but the result was delayed so they returned her. My grandad is now dead after a cough followed by breathing difficulties. Several other residents on his/her floor have symptoms.

On his death certificate it says “old age/frail”. I wonder if they will put that on all the residents at the home that die of “old age” in the next week or two. I feel him and others like him are being airbrushed out of their figures. And left to die.

Ireland have announced that over half their coronavirus deaths have been in care homes

In the UK the claim is still just 10%

Not the UK. Scotland have said 25% deaths are outwith hospital. England's figures are based on data only up until 3rd April so they will obviously be a larger % now

so saying that it is not possible is not correct. Saying it is not possible to update it daily IS correct. It can only be updated on a weekly basis, and will still have a time lag.

The ONs numbers are not clear. Are'nt they? I'll have another look but they seemed OK to me, exhaustively so!

I wanted a figure for care homes, for coronavirus for that week ( 3rd april i think) from the ons figures. That was not easy to find at all - then i wanted to know where these extras were then added into the gov daily update totals - people were telling me they were added in - where? When? I could not see this.

It is clear from yesterday government update that it is only hosptial figures , they have clarifed that now. Most other countries do it this way so i makes sense but i got fed up of experts saying the uk was tracking france when the figures are not comparable. France now includes care homes.
I saw yesterday as well a line for the ons figures so that is good, it is behind but at least it is there now. So it will be clearer from now on.

In my view unless the person has actually been tested for the virus, I think the cause of death is a bit meaningless.
I know of 2 people in my immediate family where the cause of death was recorded incorrectly, though this was years ago and prior to the current covid19, and ultimately did not matter.
In the end, I will use the total number of deaths in March April etc compared to previous years. This would then include those who have actually died from other causes exacerbated by the virus (cancer not being dealt with, etc)