Surely schools have to be first to open?

[Riddlediddle]

I know lockdown is for at least another 3 weeks (and likely longer!) however when we do start to come out of lockdown surely schools have to be the first thing to reopen? Parents of children of primary school age (me included) will not be able to return to their jobs unless the schools are open or childcare options are available? I just don't see how this will all work as surely schools will not be at full staffing levels due to some having to self isolate/be in higher risk categories. I just wish the government would give us some indication of what the exit plan is.

Where I teach had a positive test in our school community in the week before the schools were closed. A child (in the same year group as the positive test pupil) coughed for an entire lesson. I reported this to my SLT and , because none of them saw him cough, he stayed in school. Pupil had so obviously been primed by his parents because as soon as I asked if he was ok needed water prior to me telling him to go and wash the hands he was coughing so prolifically into he quickly responded "it's ok though I've not got a temperature ".

Until routine testing is available schools should not be back.

We will put parents is really difficult situations trying to make decisions about their DCs health, their own health . Potential exposure and risks or worrying that their DC will fall behind...

And my DH is in a profession that has been mentioned in this thread as one where social distancing is impossible to maintain so I could be potentially carrying the virus and asymptomatic myself and it is impossible to maintain social distancing in a school.

I honestly think both of those things will be the case within the next 4-8 weeks.

With things as they are now it’s difficult to see that numbers could ever drop significantly but they will.

I’ve see so many parents send kids into school who should be at home (I know people have to work etc). But that’s a concern like a pp has said. Whose to say people would be responsible and wouldn’t just send their sick child in?

@Sunshinegirl

Have you ever worked with teenagers? I’m a high school teacher. We’re not going to be able to get the kids to stay in their one seat for hours on end.

At break time they will want to go out and they will mix. Teenagers are invincible after all.

They will walk to school in groups and home in groups.

Essentially once you tell them they can go back to school, they will see it as danger averted.

Social distancing is virtually impossible, unless you are dealing with having around 6 pupils in at a time and those pupils follow instructions to the letter.

Not going to happen. But I don’t mind to be honest. I’d see it as time to start going back to normal too!

I'm thinking how we could try social distancing at my school. We could have separate entrances for EYFS, KS1 and upper and lower KS2, so that wouldn't be a problem. Space in classrooms would be an issue, so 8-10 children at most, but perhaps we could use the hall and the lunch area too, although no interactive whiteboards in those places, so could maybe have half of each class in at a time. I think only one or two teachers who wouldn't be able to come back, so if SLT were to step up then we'd be okay in that respect.

Not sure what I'd do about stationery or books. Things like coloured pencils, sharpeners, glue, even rulers, are all shared as not enough for one each. I'd either have to plan lessons that use only a writing pencil or else constantly clean stuff. Exercise books would have to be kept by each child on a designated bit of floor, because otherwise they'd all go in a box altogether after each lesson and potentially be contaminated from each other.

No idea about how many support staff, admin, catering, maintenance we'd get in, which would obviously have an impact. Things like door handles and toilets would have to be cleaned regularly.

We could get kids to wash hands regularly but only if we get enough soap. There are two toilets for lower KS2 altogether, so they'd need to supply big tubs of it! Not sure how the EYFS teachers would get their kids to do any kind of social distancing and they'd have to help all of them wash their hands properly. In fact, all year groups would need supervision for handwashing, or they'd need to supply proper hand gel.

I suppose it might be doable, a lot of extra work, but it would be nice to see the kids again and get back into something normal.

We'd definitely need more soap and/or hand gel, though! And staff would need access to the cleaning equipment so we could regularly wipe things down.

So maybe these people can start the economy up where its easier to social distance then. Not start with schools where its nigh on impossible.

Whereas social distancing on the Tube is so easy! And contact tracing a breeze.

We will all need to accept that whatever measures are relaxed, social distancing will decrease. Important to look to countries where social distancing is not as stringent but test and trace much stronger, and the difference made by the latter.

@DICarter1

We’ve had children attend school so poorly they’ve been trying to sleep on the desks, near enough fainted and in a few cases we have had to call an ambulance. We’ve phoned parents to collect children and parents have outright refused or failed to turn up for hours. I sat with a boy who had a broken arm for 3 hours before his mum turned up. Apparently she’d had to wait for the washing to finish so she could hang it out before leaving the house.

Even at the start of this panic, we had to call parents to collect children with coughs and temperatures. Some were livid! They no their child and they know their child isn’t poorly was the response.

I thought this was an interesting read on the subject of schools opening start by capping school capacity at 50% amongst other considerations.

Plus if teenagers are allowed back at school, then they are going to also expect to be allowed back out with their friends after school and at the weekend. Social distancing will be over, which is why the government are in no rush to do this.

The pupils in my (good state school) ripped the soap dispensers off the wall to try to get the school to shut as they were then unable to wash their hands properly.

School kids do not have an adult's awareness and we shouldn't expect them to.

I’m not arguing schools shouldn’t open. They’re going to have to.

But if people expect social distancing to take place, they are going to be disappointed.

@hellosunshine5 what about school transport ? Staggered wouldn't work for them . Or families with children in multiple years would mix at home and therefore pass it to their class etc.

I wonder to an extent whether people fall into two camps. Those whose intention is never to catch COVID and to take any and all steps necessary to avoid any risk of infection until such time as a vaccine is available in one camp. In the other those who accept that the purpose of the lockdown is to slow the spread of the virus not halt it and therefore there’s a reasonable chance of catching COVID before a vaccine becomes available.

I suspect if it’s the case that people do align one way or the other it would have a significant impact on their views on schools.

Whose to say people would be responsible and wouldn’t just send their sick child in?

I wonder if we’ll end up with temperature-taking at the school gate or similar? Especially if schools are going back for staggered starts.

What they do with nurseries will be particularly interesting - whether they open full day nurseries relatively early and throw social distancing to the wall (as is already happening in hub nurseries for key workers I’m sure) as all the parents who use them are likely to be working; or whether they’ll leave them until much later.

I want my 8 year old back at school once we reach the appropriate entirely for his own sake; if DH and I need to we could teach him a bit and both get most of our work done in a reasonable way, and he could entertain himself pretty well.

But the 4yo rightly needs much higher and more constant levels of attention. He gets a lot out of nursery and misses it, but I’ll be honest and say him going back to nursery would be as beneficial to us as parents as to him, given we need to keep working and safeguard both of our jobs. At the moment when we aren’t with the children we’re working (and sometimes working with the children). The long weekend was such a blissful oasis for our mental health - even though we both needed to do work a bit, it wasn’t the frantic rush to cram it all in and still give the kids a reasonable quality of life and parental interaction.

A school transport driver posted on another thread. They explained how staggering would be difficult.

The equipment- I had forgotten about that. The purple pens of shared saliva.

@Sunshinegirl82 I think that’s spot on.

Despite certain studies that have been reported in the media, we don't know the real impact of opening/closing schools on the spread- however, as others have said, re-opening schools will be the end of social distancing for a lot of people, from primary school parents doing drop off/pick up to teens who won't want to stay home at the weekend if they have been in school all week.

I agree that whenever schools reopen, it will mean some difficult decisions for families.

It was originally suggested that opening/closing schools could act like a tap, to increase/decrease the number of new cases- so if we are able to cope with a second peak in the summer, we should reopen schools for a short period before the summer holidays, with the understanding they may have to be closed in the autumn again before winter flu season hits.

Does opening schools in shifts or on alternate days/weeks to different year groups actually help get the country back to work? I think there will be decisions made about what to prioritize e.g. the economy vs the education of individual year groups.

I did think the other day that primary schools in MATs could perhaps go back first in the secondary buildings, with secondary teachers helping out. This would give the space/staffing for social distancing, and provide childcare- as most secondary kids can be home alone, or at least won't disturb you as much if you are home learning.

However, this would come at an expense to the wellbeing and education of secondary school children.

Alternatively, if you are prioritizing education, then Y10/12 go back first- and they can probably social distance more effectively too. And you can maybe have the youngest, healthiest teachers in supervising them. But Y10/12 students can stay at home alone anyway- so this doesn't help the economy that much.

Sunshine you have got me thinking.

I think I will eventually get it myself but living with vulnerable over 70s and a OH who is high risk makes me extremely cautious. So while I think I fit into the first camp. I want the NHS to be not struggling when I do.

I think the only way of limiting the numbers would be to gradually build up the key workers list. So for example dentists and other healthcare workers who are not already in. Alternating year groups wouldn't work as you would still have full classrooms; alternating days would be tricky and not necessarily helpful to parents (e.g. employers may not like Mon Wed Fri one week then Tues Thurs the next).

It is hard enough to maintain social distance in a class with just a few children in. Having all 30 children per class would mean no social distancing during the day, and then it would be hard for people to keep their distance at weekends knowing that their children are in a crowded room all day. I do get the point made above about not being able to go to the shop etc. but working in a crowded room without PPE 5 days a week.

There are so many hypotheticals, hence blanket closure had to take place.

The last few days we had extended registration to see if enough staff were in to allow the school to be operational.

What if you get your DC to school only to get a call to come and get them as pupil/teacher ratios can't be maintained?

Am I a childcare professional or an educator? To be frank there is a reason I am a secondary teacher not early years or primary. I don't have the skills, qualifications or inclination for anything other environment than secondary .

For practical reasons, it would make sense to send Primary aged children back first as secondary age can work from home and be left alone whilst parents work.

They've already said GCSE and A levels are cancelled do no point rushing those kids back to school.

I have a key worker status but am keeping my kids at home and working from home for now with work's support.
That could be withdrawn at any time however, and my children are too young to be left alone at home all day every day.
Its an impossible situation.

I think sending primary schools back but not secondary schools would be a good stagger. Let's many parents get back to work but keeps teens under lockdown.

Glad I'm not a politician right now!

I personally can't see how schools going back at all..

For the 'shielding' group - as people have mentioned - we are not long term sick. We have serious underlying health conditions which would probably kill us if we could Covid. However in normal times I work full time in an office/community so am able to WFH at the moment. I took my DD out of school to protect ME .. much more than to protect her as she is young fit and healthy and has much lesser risk of being affected.

If schools went back, this is a whole pile of kids literally at risk of killing their parents ! Therefore the choice is for parents like me to have to keep their kids at home - which is a massive disadvantage to such children.

The only possible compromise is for the children of at risk households to be taught from home... however this means running two systems.. and there simply are not enough teachers to run a school at present let alone an actual school and a virtual one.

I am extremely grateful that our headmaster has made the decision that our school WILL NOT open until September. (at the earliest) .

Therefore - if my child went

I've got my fingers and toes crossed that we get antibody testing up and running before the kids are asked to return to school. I think I have had this virus but obviously I don't know for sure, It would be awful to be shielding from my own family without any good reason.

You can’t deprive a generation of children of months of education because a group needs to be shielded. It is deeply unfair for the shielded group, but the rest of them need to get back to school. It’s awful but you can’t shut down schools because some children won’t be able to attend.

What about the shielded teachers?