we have now had more deaths from covid 19 than China!

[EricaNernie]

That is so shocking and awful.
remembering how impressed and worried we were about china building new hospitals almost overnight, and the lockdown
and now it is here.

[BovaryX]

The Telegraph is reporting a coordinated, concerted propaganda campaign targeting social media.

Chinese state media is flooding Facebook and Instagram with undisclosed political adverts whitewashing its role in the coronavirus pandemic and pinning blame on Donald Trump.Three official news outlets – Xinhua, China Central Television and the Global Times – have targeted users across the world with promoted stories in English, Chinese and Arabic. The ads, seen millions of times, extolled China’s efforts against Covid-19, downplayed its domestic outbreak, depicted Mr Trump as misguided and racist, and suggested that the virus might have originated in the US

[BigChocFrenzy]

Well Trump is racist, a crook and a liar
.... but the Chinese dictatorship have been lying through their teeth all along

and trying to cover this up

• they are still silencing doctors who speak out about deaths
  
  The real deaths in China may be x 10 or more
  
  "The level of panic they displayed (before anyone else, remember) to lock down first a city of over 10 million, then a region of 60 million,
  suggests very strongly that they were much much more afraid of this virus than they had any right to be at 50 deaths and less than 1K cases."
  
  ^This

[BigChocFrenzy]

So no, imo UK deaths are in reality far lower than China

[Fev11]

Here’s the Neil Ferguson article:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/28/neil-ferguson-scientist-convinced-boris-johnson-uk-coronavirus-lockdown-criticised/amp/

[Dissimilitude]

We don't know how much China has downplayed its figures (I suspect they are a significant underestimate), and we also don't know whether it was state-sanctioned "lying from the top", or the rather-more-likely "leaders accidentally provided the best incentive for everyone lower down the hierarchy to minimize their numbers, i.e. by sacking people in charge of areas with large outbreaks".

I suspect the latter is more important. Authoritarian countries can have difficulty getting accurate reports because everyone is scared to tell the truth - slightly different from the leaders instructing people to lie, but the result is the same.

When all is said and done, I expect China to lose quite significantly out of this. Western nations will wake up and realise just how bad an idea it is to rely on China for critical supply chains.

[BigChocFrenzy]

re pp asking about Germany - I live in Germany:

RKI Institute (German public health authority) says deaths with CV are counted as being from it

Low death rate is because:

• Massive testing program - 100,000 per day now - including those with minor symptoms.
  has meant a higher % of cases were confirmed than in most other countries.
  Enabled by huge network of labs and the large pharmaceutical / chemical industries supply them with reagets etc - AND the German govt ordering this and also ventilators etc very early on
  
  
• All these confirmed cases even at home were monitored daily, so any deterioration was treated without delay, which avoided some cases getting too serious
  
  
• Infected cases were far more likely to be known and were ordered to stay home, no exception for exercise or food, with severe penalties for leaving.
  The UK for example allows infected people to exercise - probably because no tests to confirm infection
  
  
• Massive contact tracing program for infected people, to isolate and treat other cases early
  
  
• More doctors, critical care beds, other hospital beds than anywhere else in Europe - about 3 x in the UK (Very expensive system !)
  So every case has been treated to the maximum, taken to hospital whenever needed, not restricted as in many countries
  
  
• First outbreaks of COVID were heavily concentrated on skiers and those they infected,
  so a much lower average age of patients and fitter than elsewhere
  Death rate has been rising rapidly for the last 10 days, as the virus has spread to older people too

[FrankieStein402]

It's very convenient for Boris and Trump to be able to claim China are fiddling the figures/understating etc but

Look at the graphs - eg below and anywhere else that is plotting countries against each other
www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/03/world/coronavirus-flatten-the-curve-countries.html

the growth curve of death rates for China match very closely those of most other countries - nothing obviously fiddled there. - China then flattened out - why would they be easing restrictions if deaths were still going up?

There has been considerable guff spouted on social media trying to discredit the china figures - put your brain in gear and ask who benefits from that story and who has a track record for trolling social media for political gain?

[PlanDeRaccordement]

The level of panic they displayed (before anyone else, remember) to lock down first a city of over 10 million, then a region of 60 million, suggests very strongly that they were much much more afraid of this virus than they had any right to be at 50 deaths and less than 1K cases.

I disagree. The WHO report from the 23rd January gives good reasons to be concerned and impose a lockdown.

1. 95 of the 571 patients, or 16% of cases had seriously ill patients, 5% critically ill and 4% died.
   
2. most importantly, there was now evidence that Covid can spread through human to human transmission. Prior to this time, it was thought all cases were animal- human transmission. Thus the closing of the seafood market, adding hygiene restrictions to other markets,
   etc.
   
   www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200123-sitrep-3-2019-ncov.pdf?sfvrsn=d6d23643_8

[mochajoes]

So if we never trusted the figures from China and always ‘knew’ they were higher, why didn’t we take action earlier?

Personally I only started to doubt the figures in the last few weeks when the horror unfolded in Italy. Remember the WHO said in mid Jan no clear evidence was found of human to human transmission. The WHO have to keep China on side to obtain info but they seem to have not probed them anyway near enough & look bad now.

It was only 23/2 that we saw a surge in Italian cases & 17/03 that France imposed their lockdown. Obviously we should of have had more PPE but I'm not sure what else the gov could have done earlier as the public need to be on side & believe the seriousness of it. The swine flu pandemic resulted in 500 deaths in the UK which was much lower than forecasted.

[Keepdistance]

Maybe the chinese are just better at maths.
The people in charge in uk couldnt seem to work out how many would die even with china data. And they could also see what was happening in italy (who have twice the icu beds we do).

The masks in china would have made a difference.
They didnt have people flying in from elsewhere speeding things up.
I expect they stopped public transport and they bleached everywhere.

China couldnt afford to let it get out of control as their population is so huge.
Also if viral load matters

• masks
  
• possibly smaller families? If most only had 1 child.
  

• they took the people to hospital so were monioring them and i assume intervened as soon as they deteriorated.
  

We probably have a lot more than 80k people with it.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

Every country has a different testing regime and different ways of counting cases and deaths. So it’s safe to say that no one’s figures are accurate because there is no globally agreed on single approach to testing and counting cases and deaths.

Not having complete accuracy is very different from lying or cover ups. I do not think China is lying. Yes, their numbers may be more inaccurate but they would be because the virus was not isolated until 7 Jan and then immediately shared with the WHO and rest of the world. Only then could tests be developed. So because it started in China, and there were no tests invented or produced for the first six to eight weeks, of course the cases counted would be based on clinical symptoms alone. And this disease is just like any viral pneumonia. Without tests to see which virus killed person y from pneumonia, some cases and deaths will naturally not have been counted.

Too, the NHS has come out and explained that UK deaths rates will appear to be higher than reality because only those ill enough to be admitted to hospital are being tested. Now they’ve added hospital workers only to this. This means the U.K. numbers are inaccurate too as they do not count asymptomatic or mildly affected people.

Germany’s death rate appears low because they are testing widely and not limiting it to people in hospital or working in a hospital.

So you can’t directly compare death rates between countries without understanding who is being tested or not tested and how cases and deaths are being counted. The differences between countries have a significant effect on the apparent death rate.

[mochajoes]

Every country has a different testing regime and different ways of counting cases and deaths. So it’s safe to say that no one’s figures are accurate because there is no globally agreed on single approach to testing and counting cases and deaths.

I agree

[Cornettoninja]

The people in charge in uk couldnt seem to work out how many would die even with china data

I’d be interested to know whether the figures were looked at for China’s deaths from pneumonia/respiratory illnesses for the months preceding isolation of covid-19.

[FrankieStein402]

Obviously we should of have had more PPE but I'm not sure what else the gov could have done earlier as the public need to be on side

The public didn't need to be onside to get testing capability organised, to order ventilators, to co-operate with the EU in procurement - all of that should have been set in train at least a month before it was.

Even when the need to get people onside for lockdown was clear the bumbler and his crew couldn't get clear messaging - lots of 'should' instead of 'must' - "ill see my mother/handshake' etc

You still think the government couldn't have done better?

[UYScuti]

Maybe the Chinese are better at maths but they also have years of practice with the smoke and mirrors

[ShanghaiDiva]

Yes, that would be interesting.
No doubt there are many cases that were probably misreported, not as part of a cover up, but because nobody knew to look for another cause.

[TheHeathenOfSuburbia]

Agree with PlanDeRaccordement

It's amazing, considering how scientifically advanced we think we are, we'll never actually know exactly what went on in this pandemic.

Low testing numbers and different recording of deaths across regions never mind countries.

And yes, China couldn't test for the virus until someone had isolated it, unpicked its genetic code and designed a test.

[BovaryX]

From the Telegraph. This is a coordinated propaganda campaign conducted on social media The aim of this propaganda is to silence criticism of the initial response to the virus and to deflect blame for the outbreak onto America. The proponents of this propaganda parrot the same talking points and they are prolific across the internet.

the ads are part of a worldwide propaganda campaign, coordinated across Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and traditional media, attempting to depict China as a global leader in the fight against Covid-19 and drown out accusations that it made the crisis worse by trying to cover up its own outbreak

[BovaryX]

www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/04/05/china-floods-facebook-instagram-undeclared-coronavirus-propaganda/

[UYScuti]

The fact that China is pushing out all this propaganda shows that they have lots to cover up lots of face to save
They're making it really obvious that they've got a lot to hide😳

[BovaryX]

They're making it really obvious that they've got a lot to hide

I find it interesting how many are eager to rush to the defence of a totalitarian regime by parroting its talking points....

[MarshaBradyo]

The measures they used were extreme. There will be many countries who surpass their numbers.

[BovaryX]

This is from the Foreign Policy piece linked by a PP. The quote from Steve Tsang is particularly pertinent.

^while the rising number of cases elsewhere shows that China isn’t alone in failing in the initial stages of an outbreak, the full story of the Chinese loss will probably never be known—and certainly not recognized by WHO or other bodies.
One reason is that official data from China is often highly dubious—which can lead to ill-advised health policies in other countries, since studies based on information from China are the first used to understand COVID-19. Countless cases of people dying at home in Wuhan—some being described in social media posts—will probably never go into the statistics. And while a report by Caixin on the Chinese province of Heilongjiang said that a considerable percentage of asymptomatic cases has not been reported—which amounts to about 50 percent more known infections in China, according to a South China Morning Post report on classified government data—WHO takes numbers reported by Beijing at face value. “I thought the greatest success of the Chinese party-state was in getting the WHO to focus on the positive sides of China’s responses and ignore the negative sides of the responses,” said Steve Tsang, director of the China Institute at the SOAS University of London. “With the WHO presenting China’s responses in a positive light, the Chinese government is able to make its propaganda campaign to ignore its earlier mistakes appear credible and to ignore the human, societal, and economic costs of its responses^

[Tootletum]

China lied. And yes their lockdown was strict because they're a police state to start with. People will carry in dying for many weeks. Whether or not the 10% of the population that are dickheads all get locked up.

[rhowton]

Let's assume that China did not tell the truth