If less people are dying in Germany of this....

[jobhunter7]

Should we not be thinking of looking at what they are doing over there that is working and seeing if it would work in the UK, also?

edition.cnn.com/2020/03/24/opinions/germany-low-death-rate-for-coronavirus-sepkowitz/index.html

Why does Germany have so many more ICU beds? Obviously it is helpful at times like this but in normal times?

I agree Marsha. The U.K. is only testing those who are admitted to a hospital. Most people with covid19 can stay at home and recover. So only the most serious cases are being tested and recorded.
Germany is testing more widely and so has mild cases recorded whereas the U.K. does not.
The death rates overall could be the same. But I think Germany will still come out ahead as they are not experiencing a shortage of ICU beds and respirators. In the U.K. people are dying while waiting in the queue for an ICU bed and/or respirator.
Did you see Elon Musk bought and donated thousands of respirators to the US? Why isn’t Richard Branson doing the same?

in the UK, people are only being tested once they are so ill that they have to be admitted to hospital

Unless you are Prince Charles, clearly.

Germany has tested more extensively and halted the spread of the disease to a better extent by contact tracing. They have also initiated measures more than a week earlier than the UK did.

Germany also has almost 30 beds per 100,000 people compared to the UK which has just 6.6 ICU beds per 100,000 people.

There is quite a lot of ill-informed commentary in posts above on this thread. It is better to ignore these.

Extended families don’t often live together (like in Italy).

The above is inaccurate. The stats show that generations do NOT live together anymore.

Did you see Elon Musk bought and donated thousands of respirators to the US? Why isn’t Richard Branson doing the same?

It is not the cost that is the limiting factor, it is the ability to manufacture them.

The difference in Healthcare systems certainly plays a part but I think the most critical thing here is that, broadly speaking, Germans do as they're fucking told.

Culturally speaking the way various laws work in germany means that as a society they all are more aware of the individual's responsibility to society as a whole and they are much better at following guidance/advice and laws than people here ever have been.

The biggest factor in their reduced stats will be that the nation took it seriously from the start and social distancing, self isolation and other measures were implemented quickly and pretty much iniversally. none of this 'fuck it let's go down the pub' bollocks.

Hmm, I read the German press (am a Gm native), and they have been printing exactly the same articles about citizens being irresponsible in terms of social distancing, and complaining about a lack of detail and clarity in the instructions they're receiving. They have now got the message and are printing pics of empty streets, just like the British press, so I'm not sure there's a huge difference in that respect.

There are also big regional differences in Germany as the Länder have much greater legislative autonomy than is the case in the UK, so some regions have acted much more firmly than others. There's also been a big debate and philosophical angsting (more than here) about balance between safeguarding democratic rights and constraining people's freedoms of choice and movement.

I suspect more proactive testing and better healthcare infrastructure are likely to be bigger factors than some vague national personality characteristics - Germans definitely do have different attitudes to some rules than Brits or Italians, but it's not Singapore or China, where the govt issues orders and the population just get on and do what they're told.

I don't think not having the UK's ridiculous "soldier on through" (spread it around) attitude to illness is a bad thing at all. Use of the Bradford Factor to penalise people for legitimate absences ought to be illegal. It's a terrible practice.

That said, there has to be a happy middle ground between that and a week off for a mild sniffle. In more ordinary times, obviously!

My (England) neighbour was one of the early (high risk and traced/self declared) people. When they fell ill, they were tested (they are okay now) and became an early "case".

Contrast this with DD's friend, whose family had decided to self-isolate because of bronchitis/asthma and were able to work from home. DD's friend developed symptoms about 10 days ago and the doctor did a Skype consultation on Friday, confirming the family's suspicions. She certainly wasn't a "case" for at least a week and possibly isn't now. She would have been studying in a busy secondary school for several days, oblivious that she had picked up the virus.

I can't help thinking that loads of us might have it, but have few symptoms.

I agree @ravenmum, Germany are on the same death rate trajectory as everyone else, sadly.

The increased ICU beds they have is not the reason the death rate is low as there are only 23 critical cases atm.

They are testing more, that's the sole reason it looks like a lower death rate but the reality is this is just the start.

Also, there is a high false negative test rate here. I don't know if that's the same everywhere or not though...

It's a combination of factors:

Better funded healthcare (roughly 15.5% of people's income is deducted for health insurance; this is not the same as income tax, which is calculated separately).

Better workers rights, no ZHC, paid sick leave, ... mean that people are happy to stay off work when they are ill.

No stupid school attendance rules that include children being absent from school because they are sick. I have never understood why sick days count against a pupil' s attendance here.

More testing.

Better hygiene. It's considered very bad manners to not wash your hands after you come in the house and before and after eating. Also carrying enough (and using) tissues when you have a cold. I have seen so many people in the UK sniffing their snot back up or wiping it on their sleeves 🤮.

Less kissing and generational living than in countries like Italy or Spain.

Better at following rules than for example Mediterranean cultures.

Even if the mortality rate is lower, the difference in absolute number of deaths is still striking.

Germany has 20 million more people than France or the UK, but the official stats (WHO) on deaths yesterday were:

France: 860
UK: 335
Germany: 126

@dreamingbohemian See my compilation above with the 4-day time lag, though.

@PutYourBackIntoit Germany does have a higher population altogether, which makes a difference, but by far the most of the deaths so far have been in the west - and that has roughly the population of the UK... I agree, I think it's actually pretty similar to the UK so far.

Germany has tested 400,000 people and are putting those that need help in hospital. This means that people get ventilation earlier. They are also picking up mild cases so getting the full range - not just those severely ill.

The German mortality rate is a good reflector of true mortality if there are no health care restrictions

Did you see Elon Musk bought and donated thousands of respirators to the US? Why isn’t Richard Branson doing the same?

Where is Branson, or the NHS, going to buy the respirators?

Ventilators are no use without the staff or the beds to use them - training time for a specialist nurse is 12 months.

Staff cannot continue to work in ICU without the correct protective wear. The supply of this is a total f*ckup - some places have gowns, but no masks. Some have masks but no visors or gowns. Nowhere has all of the protective equipment that it needs - putting health workers and patients at risk.

Ventilators are useless without the power, monitors and oxygen units to link them to - and without the actual oxygen and muscle-relaxing drugs and gasses which are also in short supply.

Even the WHO has questioned Germany's statistics. If you look at one hospital in Spain, who celebrated that ONE person had recovered from their ICU, ONE only, it seems that it is not necessarily the availability of ventilators. The same is happening in Italy. Unfortunately, age and co-morbidity means you are likely to die whether you have ventilation or not. All reports (unverified), are that countries with disparities in death reporting are due to different rules, not necessarily different or better treatment regimes.

Sadly, most of the patients who are dying, would be dying in the next few months, year, anyway........ what we need is a better analysis of how many "excess" deaths we are having, without the Corona as an additional co-morbidity. Not sure that makes sense, but it is something I keep wondering about.

@dreamingbohemian

This exactly Plus the Germans do as they’re told. Staying indoors means staying indoors not a picnic in the park or walking the dog 3 times a day and then going for a run.

They have 3x the hospital beds in Germany than we do in the UK, and we have about 2/3 the number of physicians. Not to mention a decade of cuts, underfunding, removal of bursaries for nurses.

Plus NHS staff are still apparently not receiving anything like the amount of protective clothing or testing that they need (so are having to take 14 days off to self-isolate without being sure whether they have the Coronavirus, or are risking getting ill with it themselves, again, affecting staff numbers.

Germans do as they’re told. Staying indoors means staying indoors not a picnic in the park or walking the dog 3 times a day and then going for a run.
This is not true - and in any case, we're allowed to walk the dog and go for a run as often as we want!

They're reporting the deaths as the underlying health condition or pneumonia (no positive test, no Corona virus) according to a doctor friend.

The main thing they have done differently to the UK is have a much better health system in almost every single way. It's a bit late for us to start copying them on that one.

Germany is not on an earlier timeline.

The first case was discovered in Germany on 27 January, in the UK on 31 January.

Germany crossed 100 cases on 1 March, the UK crossed 100 on 5 March.

Looking at deaths only is a bit misleading for all the reasons we are talking about.

Of course, it may turn out in the end, after the crisis is over and we have better data, that the mortality rate in Germany is not actually that different. We may just be seeing fewer deaths for now because cases are being detected earlier and there is more capacity to treat people.

11 deaths in old East Germany so far.
161 in old West Germany, which has a population of 68.7 million (2019), similar to UK population of 67.5 million (2019).
At this number of days after the first death, the number of deaths in the UK was 177.

161 in old West Germany on Day 15 after first death
177 in UK on Day 15 after first death

Better in Germany but not the huge difference people are making out.

The first case was discovered in Germany on 27 January, in the UK on 31 January.
I would say that deaths are a more reliable indication of how far we are along than confirmed cases - countries started testing at different times.

@Walnutwhipster No, not true, see above.