If less people are dying in Germany of this....

[jobhunter7]

Should we not be thinking of looking at what they are doing over there that is working and seeing if it would work in the UK, also?

edition.cnn.com/2020/03/24/opinions/germany-low-death-rate-for-coronavirus-sepkowitz/index.html

Germany and Austria are testing far more people than the UK is. People are being tested as soon as they suspect that they are infected, whereas in the UK, people are only being tested once they are so ill that they have to be admitted to hospital - so the infection is being identified earlier than in the UK. There are drive-in testing stations and the turnaround time for test results is a few hours, not days as in the UK.

Germany and Austria have been in lockdown for over a week - some areas for over two weeks. 'Lockdown' as in everything is closed except food shops and pharmacies, and essential services and factories such as those producing food. Borders are closed. Certain hot-spot areas such as Tirol are in total quarantine. People have been observing social distancing and respecting self-quarantine rules.

If anything positive comes out of the Corona pandemic it has to be that the UK realises that the NHS is far behind much of the rest of the developed world in terms of beds per capita, doctors per capita, equipment per capita and also in the provision of the second line staff (equipment technicians, lab technicians etc). It has also highlighted how disjointed contingency planning has been and how a service already running at full capacity has no slack available to deal with this type of crisis.

It must also highlight that the politicians of all parties (in England, all of the major parties have been in power at one time or another over the last 25 years) have failed to make the country a better, safer and healthier place to live.

@WhatWouldYouDoWhatWouldJesusDo

Which also makes sense. I read about the headteacher in Barrow. So very sad.

Brings us back to the issue of travel and strengthening the case for staying home, and shows how much we dont know about this virus.

I think the 'more law-abiding' thing varies -- not necessarily here in Berlin, for example! And the police are having to go round and close down bars and parties still.

But I do think the instructions were more clear here, and in particular it was made clear early on that only essential workers should go to work, and that list was rather limited. Compared to the mixed messaging in the UK so that you still have estate agents forcing employees to come in, for example, you still had people in the parks and beaches last weekend.

It's easier to follow the law when you know what it is!

Of course, people are being very careful, but I do think cultural factors are meaningful.

Russia too has got off lightly, Inshallah, and they wash their hands all the time- on getting to school, getting home from work, toilet, food prep, the lot. They also keep their flats spotless.

"In Italy, 74% of those who’ve tested positive are over 50. In Germany, 82% of cases are people under 60.The prospect that the outbreak may shift to older people has German health officials worried, too."

“We are only at the beginning of the epidemic,” said Lothar Wieler, president of the Robert Koch Institute, Germany’s public health authority."

"More than 20% of Italians between the ages of 30 and 49 live with their parents, according to Bonn University economists Christian Bayer and Moritz Kuhn.That’s more than double the rate for Germans in that age bracket. Bayer and Moritz have found a correlation between generations living under one roof and case fatality for coronavirus."

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-24/coronavirus-less-deadly-in-germany-because-of-youthful-patients

Germany confirmed cases 33,952
UK confirmed cases 8,077
Germany tests 400,000 since March 1
UK tests 90,000 since ???

So at least 4.4 times more tests in Germany.
And 4.2 times more confirmed cases in Germany.

Germany is not farther behind the UK, that doesn't explain it. It's roughly on the same timeline as France and Spain.

In Germany they acted faster and more efficiently, people took the risk more seriously, testing and their healthcare system is better. Sadly we can’t replicate as it’s too late - plus clearly a large proportion of the population here are too stupid to take on the magnitude of what is coming.

So sad, hopefully stricter measures being implemented soon plus help for the self-employed trades (& all self employed) will get passed through & announced so those still putting themselves at risk who feel they have no choice because they can’t survive financially without continuing to work right now might make some difference, but either way the next few weeks will unfold and show how inneffective the measures taken so far have been here.

Germany has more than twice the number of ICU beds/ per head of population that the U.K. has

& I say this knowing several friends in London who are in their homes, dealing with having Coronavirus, completely unreported (because you can’t), it’s impossible to know the true figures.

The Times
"6 Dec 2019 - German workers took more than four times as many sick days on average as their British counterparts last year, according to a national study. Absence through illness reached 18.5 days per employee in 2018, with Berliners taking 21 days and residents of Saxony-Anhalt taking 26."

i agree, cultural differences has effects.
washing hands when you come home, taking off your outside clothes immediately, keeping your home clean, etc. helps.

@LouQoo

Thanks for that. I suspected that it was deeper than second home owners as the numbers are so striking for me.

Your neighbouring county, Lancashire has just over double the population yet nearing 40+ less cases. Lancashire is a huge county with a mixed population, Blackpool has more cases than inland towns in Lancs, yet I haven't been able to locate any figures in Morecambe which has an ageing population that are more than likely to have existing conditions.

Yet, regions such as Greater Manchester are broken down to boroughs, so their numbers are much lower. Lancashire is the third largest county in England.

What this evidences to me, is that the area checker on the BBC is not giving us true numbers because of how they break it down geographically. I know some local authorities aren't releasing local data. It's all very shaky.

I also agree with @dreamingbohemian and @TeaAddict235. It's a mix of things but the main one being the rate of testing and case tracing. There have been two confirmed cases in my daughter's school. All parents were immediately informed and those who who could have come in close contact have been contacted by the health authority and tested.
I also can't find the source now unfortunately but we have 29.2 critical care beds per 100,000 people compared to 6.6 in the UK.
Hospitals also stopped visitors very early on (3 weeks ago where I live) so they have been able to slow the spread from critical places.

i saw in another thread- i dont know if its related-, about dog walking;
many people just let their dogs in, which may have stepped on spits or other dirt on grounds. this just makes my hairs go up.

The difference in Healthcare systems certainly plays a part but I think the most critical thing here is that, broadly speaking, Germans do as they're fucking told.

Culturally speaking the way various laws work in germany means that as a society they all are more aware of the individual's responsibility to society as a whole and they are much better at following guidance/advice and laws than people here ever have been.

The biggest factor in their reduced stats will be that the nation took it seriously from the start and social distancing, self isolation and other measures were implemented quickly and pretty much iniversally. none of this 'fuck it let's go down the pub' bollocks.

Yes Holiday sickness @Clavinova , like annual holidays some people take sick leave like clockwork. It's endemic. I think because the workplace is such a brutal place here, burnout and bullying are rife, it doesn't take much to make them go off on sick leave.

Just to let you know how we are dealing with it here in Ireland.The government has effectively nationalised the health service and all private hospital beds are now there for eveyones use.
It is taking advice from Chinese Doctors on how best to deal with this.
Ordered hundreds of extra ventilators and protective equipment for health staff.
They are setting up 40 test centres around the the country, that might not seem like a lot but we are a small population.
We are heading in our second week of school closures and social distancing, on lockdown now of course and most seem to be taking this seriously.
Stay safe everybody.

Germany are testing more and have 6 times the ICU capacity of the UK.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/22/germany-low-coronavirus-mortality-rate-puzzles-experts

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00134-012-2627-8

BBC R4 Inside Health last night asked why Italian death rates were so high. They said it was because:

• A high proportion of elderly.
• High rates of smoking
• High levels of antibiotic resistance

Covid is a virus, not a bacterial infection, but its the complications that can kill you, and in Italy they have a history of chucking antibiotics around irresonsibly which is a factor.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b019dl1b/episodes/downloads

"Germany has more than twice the number of ICU beds/ per head of population that the U.K. has"

Germany has 29,000 ICU beds and the UK has just 4,000.

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/24/nhs-hospitals-could-run-out-of-coronavirus-beds-in-a-fortnight

Spain has carried out over 350,000 tests but they still have 2,991 deaths.

Germany and Austria have been in lockdown for over a week - some areas for over two weeks. 'Lockdown' as in everything is closed except food shops and pharmacies, and essential services and factories such as those producing food.

Restaurants were open 6am to 6pm in Germany last week with limits on the number of customers.

The first death in the UK was on March 5.
The first death in Germany was on March 9, so 4 days later.

10 days after the first death, on March 15, the UK had 35 deaths.
10 days after the first death, on March 19, Germany had 34 deaths.

15 days after the first death, on March 20, the UK had 177 deaths.
15 days after the first death, on March 24, Germany had 171 deaths.

Seems quite similar.

Germans are testing EVERYONE, they're doing like 30k tests a day

At that rate it will take them seven and a half years.

"Germany has more than twice the number of ICU beds/ per head of population that the U.K. has"

But the article says; "NHS hospitals could run out of coronavirus beds."