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Worried about coronavirus thread 22

999 replies

ofwarren · 11/03/2020 19:40

@usernameishistory is busy and asked me to start a new thread.

Please see post 21 for more information about coronavirus.

[Edited by MNHQ at OP's request]

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
CrunchyCarrot · 11/03/2020 20:18

Thanks for the thread.

I see we are still in 'Dither'. Hmm

SansaSnark · 11/03/2020 20:18

More interesting (scary) stuff on twitter from Italy twitter.com/Yascha_Mounk/status/1237731864233807872

(do read with caution).

Oakmaiden · 11/03/2020 20:18

The numbers of cases are clearly not the whole story - the distribution is also important.

Good point.

The inference seemed to be made, earlier, that MH seemed to say "We will not close schools, no matter what". I am not a big "close them now" advocate - but I can see that it might become necessary in time. I would not like to see it ruled out as an option.

Mordred · 11/03/2020 20:18

DW's country (Poland) is shutting down everything and making sure, where possible, that people can work from home, plus guaranteeing sick pay. They have many less cases that we do.

idontlike789 · 11/03/2020 20:18

I'm not entirely sure why everyone seems so obsessed with closing schools. Closing schools brings a whole new set of problems
I agree schools are being advised to stay open as long as possible. Closing schools would have a huge impact on parents , public services and the economy . It shouldn't be done lightly , sorry but it's no where near the scale of Italy yet . It may well happen eventually but closing too early will be detrimental to everyone.
Most wont get paid and if you don't get paid you cant eat / pay bills never mind on restaurants, cinemas , holidays etc . Financially the impact is huge already to have a lockdown would be catastrophic for many businesses.
I know it's most people s instinct to stay home with your loved ones but the bigger picture here is there will be no economy left .

alloutoffucks · 11/03/2020 20:18

They are putting money ahead of people's lives. That is bloody obvious.

Bearbehind · 11/03/2020 20:18

Denmark, Sweden and Norway’s numbers are relatively much higher than ours and Qatar has had a huge leap today

There’s not much logic with the increases is there?

www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

ofwarren · 11/03/2020 20:18

Brazil reports 18 new cases of coronavirus, raising country's total to 52 t.co/eUoE2b20hL
BNO NEWSROOM

OP posts:
Sunshinegirl82 · 11/03/2020 20:18

Lockdown is one thing, closing schools as a solitary measure is another.

He also stated that the school closure would have to be for a significant period of time (I believe he referenced 90 days but I might be wrong on that, I would have to rewatch the video) to have any impact at all which would obviously have a huge cost both to the economy and to the children's education.

This goes back to the CMO having access to vast amounts of information we do not have.

MrsBeeluga · 11/03/2020 20:19

@MmeAlice, Dane here, it is scary stuff.

TopBitchoftheWitches · 11/03/2020 20:19

I have an 18 yr old vulnerable ds due to go on a college trip to London next week and a 19 year old due to go on a college trip to New York in less than less two weeks, we need to know if these trips are going ahead. Our government cannot just leave it at wash your hands.

YoursTunbridgeWells · 11/03/2020 20:19

@Mordred It's the stuff of nightmares. Sad

middleager · 11/03/2020 20:19

That's it TheBenefits
I feel for teachers and NHS staff

Skybluepink123 · 11/03/2020 20:19

A journalist (Charlotte Edwards) retweeted something from Italy about the decision made in one Rome hospital not to intubate anyone over 60!
Difficult decisions made due to limited resources but that’s really scared me.

Ciwirocks · 11/03/2020 20:20

I have worked on ICU’s in a normal winter and it can get bad. I completely believe the stories coming out of Italy, you only need to look at the number or critical cases they are dealing with and their massive death rate to see that they are not coping and people are dying most likely due to a lack of beds. It’s totally believable and will be worse here because our healthcare system is already stretched on a good day.

alloutoffucks · 11/03/2020 20:20

I understand the problems with closing schools. But I also notice lots of other countries are doing it.
While all we have is wash your hands. That is it. The total sum of the strategy.

Dannn · 11/03/2020 20:20

Sorry if this has already been posted but is anyone else absolutely shocked at the fact the Liverpool vs Madrid match has gone ahead tonight as planned? Over 1000 cases in Madrid alone. Is the UK government not alarmed by the situation in Italy? This could be us in 2 weeks time. 1000 critically ill patients in Italy and not enough ICU beds, the UK only has 4000 ICU beds and most of them are already full with non Coronavirus patients. It’s so frustrating!

HairyFloppins · 11/03/2020 20:21

Anyone in France/Germany etc are you being told repeatedly just to wash hands?

Can't believe the Cheltenham crowds. I'm a matched better and I usually do well from it but not done a single bet this week and won't.

middleager · 11/03/2020 20:21

I wonder about Charlotte Edwards' news though.
Earlier she tweeted that it might be announced London was on lockdown.

typewrriter12 · 11/03/2020 20:21

ShockConfusedSad

BIWI · 11/03/2020 20:22

The article in Bloomberg.com linked to on the last thread makes for very interesting reading - explains that the current government strategy is a very deliberate one, of influencing behaviour change.

Unfortunately the formatting might be a bit awry, but it is worth a read:

Keep Calm and Wash Your Hands: Britain’s Strategy to Beat Virus
By Robert Hutton
11 March 2020, 04:00 GMT Updated on 11 March 2020, 11:41 GMT
Government opts for more relaxed approach than other countries
‘Nudge’ unit models behavior to try to slow coronavirus spread
LISTEN TO ARTICLE
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We’re tracking the latest on the coronavirus outbreak and the global response. Sign up here for our daily newsletter on what you need to know.

While China quarantined 56 million people and the whole of Italy is on lock down to counter the spread of coronavirus, the U.K. is taking a radically different approach. Instead of keeping people inside their homes, Boris Johnson’s government is trying to get inside their heads.

A little-known team of advisers specializing in behavioral psychology is helping to steer the prime minister’s response to the health crisis, shunning headline measures like travel restrictions and quarantines to focus on a more banal task: finding ways to persuade people to wash their hands.

BRITAIN-HEALTH-VIRUS
Boris Johnson washes his hands during a visit to the Mologic Laboratory in the Bedford technology Park on March 6.Photographer: Jack Hill/AFP via Getty Images
Johnson’s team say their approach, while more relaxed than other efforts around the world, is based on sophisticated modeling that could ultimately cut the virus mortality rate among high-risk groups in the U.K. by as much as a third. The risk for Johnson is he’ll shoulder the blame if the measures prove inadequate in the weeks and months ahead.

“We’re trying, in a way that hasn’t been done before, to use all the tools to hand: medical and mathematical but also behavioral,” said David Halpern, head of the government’s Behavioral Insights Team and a member of the committee managing the outbreak response.

2020-wuhan-novel-coronavirus-outbreak-inline
In a sign of how determined they are to foster an atmosphere of calmly following advice, even after junior health minister Nadine Dorries was diagnosed with coronavirus on Monday, Johnson’s team insisted there was no need to test him, because they hadn’t been in close contact and he regularly washes his hands.

Summer Peak

At the heart of the U.K. strategy is a realization that, if coronavirus continues to spread, it will become impossible to stop most people catching it. Scientists on the team say their mission is to slow that process, reducing the number of people infected at any time and pushing the moment of peak infections into the summer months to ensure the National Health Service isn’t overloaded.

More From
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WHO Declares Pandemic; Deaths in Italy Rise 31%: Virus Update
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Washington Urges Canceling ‘Mass Gatherings’ on Virus Concerns
READ MORE FROM PROGNOSIS
To achieve this, the U.K. Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) have so far resisted calls for more draconian measures, such as banning people from attending soccer matches, or closing schools. When few people in Britain have the virus, such moves would achieve little, they argue.

Instead, they are using mathematical models to understand how the disease might spread -- a challenge that relies heavily on predicting behavior.

That’s where Halpern’s experts come in. The group was set up a decade ago by former Prime Minister David Cameron to implement the insights of American economist Richard Thaler. At the time it was dubbed the “Nudge Unit” -- after Thaler’s 2008 book with Cass Sunstein on how small influences can help people to make better decisions.

Biggest Challenge

Early work by the unit, which has carried out consultancy work in more than 30 countries, included text messages reminding people to pay their taxes on time.

But coronavirus is on another scale.

“The models rest heavily on what people will do,” Halpern said in an interview. “Will people comply with instructions, and to what extent? If kids don’t go to school, what will happen?”

An unintended outcome of closing schools, he said, could be children spending more time with grandparents -- potentially putting a group the government especially wants to protect from infection at more risk.

In the same way, banning people from attending sports events, where scientists regard an infectious person as unlikely to pass the disease to very many around them, could be counter-productive if people instead watch matches in pubs, where the disease is more likely to spread.

Disobeying

Another risk is imposing restrictions too early in the outbreak, leading to people becoming fatigued and ignoring instructions when it matters.

One of the behavioral team’s insights is that people are more likely to obey rules if they have a coronavirus test and get results quickly. So scientists have pushed for much wider testing.

The main challenge, though, is more mundane.

“A lot of people don’t wash their hands very often,” Halpern said. “And certainly not for a very long time.”

His team is trying to create a “behavioral scaffolding to form a new habit,” he said -- making hand-washing part of a routine, such as when people get home or to work and take their coats off.

While Halpern’s methods are new, he said they derive from a long scientific tradition. He cited a doctor working on a cholera outbreak in Victorian London who realized many victims were drawing water from a single pump. Taking the handle off the pump helped to end the outbreak.

No Shaking

One high-profile person who appears to be listening is Johnson, who told reporters Monday he’s dropped his policy of shaking hands.

“The behavioral psychologists say that if you don’t shake somebody’s hand then that sends an important message to them about the importance of washing your hands,” he explained.

Italy Cases Top 10,000; N.Y. Shuts Some Gatherings: Virus Update

Johnson also said measures adopted by other countries are not necessarily relevant to the U.K., which had 373 coronavirus cases as of Tuesday, according to the Department of Health. And there’s a debate over whether quarantine measures such as China’s will be effective, or whether the virus will simply re-emerge when restrictions are lifted.

But a “Keep Calm And Wash Your Hands” approach is still a gamble for Johnson. If locking down millions of people proves successful elsewhere, and the virus spreads uncontrollably across Britain, the policy will look like a terrible mistake.

— With assistance by Tim Ross

screamer1 · 11/03/2020 20:22

Sorry to ask again but do stats of Italy death demographic exist?

SistemaAddict · 11/03/2020 20:22

Who is our science different to the rest of the world? Hmm

EricaNernie · 11/03/2020 20:22

it wont be worse here, if we follow the contain the virus plan

SistemaAddict · 11/03/2020 20:22

Why! Not who. Ffs.

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