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worried about coronavirus (covid19) part 16

999 replies

usernameishistory · 07/03/2020 22:21

Next thread

previous thread here

Helpful links

WHO media speech for world plan of action

updated data on this page every day at 2pm until further notice.
www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-information-for-the-public#number-of-cases

WHO advice for the public
www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public

Its not just like flu www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/01/yes-it-is-worse-than-the-flu-busting-the-coronavirus-myths

Why WHO not declaring a pandemic www.newscientist.com/article/2235342-covid-19-why-wont-the-who-officially-declare-a-coronavirus-pandemic/

Worldometer www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

BNO News bnonews.com/index.php/2020/02/the-latest-coronavirus-cases/

Link to WHO report www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019

The Lancet coronavirus hub - latest research and comment www.thelancet.com/coronavirus

JAMA coronavirus research centre jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/pages/coronavirus-alert

Please add in other links for any wanting to increase their understanding and decrease their anxiety!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
pussycatinboots · 08/03/2020 07:27

Red Cheltenham festival this week, Midlands Grand National on Sat.
European football (Champions League etc) all week. Domestic Football.
Where do you think they will put a stop to any of these v well attended sports?
My money is on Sat at the earliest- they will want Cheltenham to go ahead and there will be a massive push from the betting industry to allow it.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2020 07:29

Noga Tarnopolsky @ntarnopolsky
PM Netanyahu's innovative plan to deploy an army of children armed with bleach was announced in a press release emitted by the Government Press Office @GPOIsrael

#Breaking: Netanyahu plans to mobilize children, who "thank G-d" are not affected by #coronavirus, to disinfect Israeli railway stations, bus stations & other public installations in Israel with bleach. Not making this up.

Gregg Carlstrom @glcarlstrom
This is an actual statement from Netanyahu, and a truly surreal one: because children seem less affected by the coronavirus, he wants to "mobilize young people" to go disinfect stuff.

I can think of no better way to commit political suicide than to tell millions of Jewish and Palestinian mothers that their kids should go fight a virus as part of Bibi's Bleach Brigade

worried about coronavirus (covid19) part 16
worried about coronavirus (covid19) part 16
worried about coronavirus (covid19) part 16
Letsbegin · 08/03/2020 07:32

clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04264533

www.worldhealth.net/news/official-statement-china-recommended-treatment-covid-19/
Not sure if this has already been mentioned. I have been following this trial and although not widely reported here it is bringing me hope!

ShanghaiDiva · 08/03/2020 07:33

@Dusty01
We were all effectively self isolating as everything was closed so there was nowhere to go. It was compulsory to wear a mask and we just went to the supermarket and then home or out for a walk. The streets were empty.
I don’t know anyone who has been ill and many of my friends stayed in China throughout this period. As everything was closed they had no contact with other people so the potential risk was only from a member of your own household.
Given the number of cases in China it was vital that the govt introduced tough controls. Are the same.measures necessary here? I honestly don’t know. If we start to get a concentration of cases in one area I imagine stricter containment measures would be necessary.

tobermoryisthebestwomble · 08/03/2020 07:35

@Wehttam For medics in critical care we will probably be ok for staffing even if 20% doctors are off sick at once which is the gov prediction. We'll struggle for nurses with the extra beds we plan to put in. (Btw there was a typo in my post which should have said increasing bed numbers by 250% not 150%). The primary issue with nurses is the skills required, as normally the unit trains nurses extensively on the needs of the deteriorating patient, and on all the machines in the unit. We have identified perhaps 30 nurses who have either recently retired or have moved to other depts who can be approached to ask if they can work on the unit.
The unit will also relax its care ratios. Currently high dependency patients are cared for on a 2:1 basis and intensive care patients on 1:1. There is a consideration that we could relax the hdu side to 3:1 to manage more patients. If we have staff who have recovered from the virus or who have mild symptoms the plan will be for these staff to manage the c19+ patients. There are other concerns around HCA and domestic staff numbers plus specialists like pharmacists and dietitians.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2020 07:37

My money is on Sat at the earliest- they will want Cheltenham to go ahead and there will be a massive push from the betting industry to allow it.

That's currently where my money is, but we should have a better idea on Monday following the government meeting with broadcasters. I think that will give us an idea of how hard the government are going to push and how soon.

Last night's Italian lockdown does put political and public press on the government to take a harder line than if the meeting had taken place over the weekend, so for once our unwillingness to work weekends might work to our favour.

I think what comes out of this meeting is now crucial and the thing to watch in the next 48 hrs.

If the government doesn't take a hard line and there is a strong public backlash that also might get things moving quicker.

Economically businesses don't want to have to pay out huge amounts in sick leave so there may be increasing pressure from big business to take more draconian moves than they might have been willing to swallow even a week ago. It'll cripple small businesses but small businesses don't fund the tory party.

Laks0007 · 08/03/2020 07:42

In terms of recruiting extra staff I think the government are missing a trick! The process of recruitment is so beurocraric they are really blocking a lot of would be staff.
One example is for graduate doctors, they have to follow strict timelines and recruitment takes place ONCE a year only. This leaves many young people with a medical degree without a job! Yet they want to recruitment vonlunteer lawyers and bankers? Absolute nonsense. They can't see what's right infront of them because the NHS is so mismanaged.

pussycatinboots · 08/03/2020 07:42

Red on Betfair it's pretty much even money whether it goes ahead or not (£3,500,000 bet on that alone Shock)

FingonTheValiant · 08/03/2020 07:45

Currently waiting for a call back from French version of 111. DS3 has had a fever since Friday evening, going up despite calpol, now over 40. Complains of pains in his legs. He’s had a cough for about 5 days. He had an episode of s.o.b late last night, although that settled. We need to see an ooh to get him and one of us signed off for tomorrow.

He’s been generally grotty for ages, but he’s been grotty since he started nursery this year so I’m not worried. But they asked for travel history and we were next to one of the French clusters just over a week ago, so now we have to wait for a doctor to make a decision re COVID before we can be directed to an ooh. They also asked for a quick overview of the rest of the family.

Anyway, they’re taking it seriously here and not letting people rock up to GP or A&E with possible symptoms (if you call first, people could still just turn up though...).

belay · 08/03/2020 07:47

Won't be long before the weather turns a lot warmer in U.K. It sometimes turns. Wet warm at Easter. Then people will want to be outside

Twitney · 08/03/2020 07:47

That petition is poorly worded as they have already ‘considered’ actions like closing schools. I’d prefer a petition to accelerate efforts to delay spread- eg telling anyone who can work form home to do so, allowing parents to take children out of schools from now until end of Easter holidays without consequence, and enforced social distancing.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2020 07:51

Palli Thordarson @pallithordarson
1/25 Part 1 - Why does soap work so well on the SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus and indeed most viruses? Because it is a self-assembled nanoparticle in which the weakest link is the lipid (fatty) bilayer. A two part thread about soap, viruses and supramolecular chemistry #COVID19

2/25 The soap dissolves the fat membrane and the virus falls apart like a house of cards and "dies", or rather, we should say it becomes inactive as viruses aren’t really alive. Viruses can be active outside the body for hours, even days.

3/25 Disinfectants, or liquids, wipes, gels and creams containing alcohol (and soap) have a similar effects but are not really quite as good as normal soap. Apart from the alcohol and soap, the “antibacterial agents” in these products don't affect the virus structure much at all.

4/25 Consequently, many antibacterial products are basically just an expensive version of soap in terms of how they act on viruses. Soap is the best but alcohol wipes are good when soap is not practical or handy (e.g. office receptions).

5/25 But why exactly is soap so good? To explain that, I will take you through a bit of a journey through supramolecular #chemistry, nanoscience and virology. I try to explain this in generic terms as much as possible, which means leaving some specialist chemistry terms out.

6/25 I point out to that while I am expert in supramolecular chemistry and the assembly of nanoparticles, I am not a virologists. The image with the first tweet is from an excellent post here which is dense with good virology info:
t.co/73TurPhxOE

7/25 I have always been fascinated by viruses as I see them as one of them most spectacular examples of how supramolecular chemistry and nanoscience can converge. Most viruses consist of three key building blocks: RNA, proteins and lipids.

8/25 The RNA is the viral genetic material -it is very similar to DNA. The proteins have several roles including breaking into the target cell, assist with virus replication and basically to be a key building block (like a brick in a house) in the whole virus structure.

9/25 The lipids then form a coat around the virus, both for protection and to assist with its spread and cellular invasion. The RNA, proteins and lipids self-assemble to form the virus. Critically, there are no strong “covalent” bonds holding these units together.

10/25 Instead the viral self-assembly is based on weak “non-covalent” interactions between the proteins, RNA and lipids. Together these act together like a Velcro so it is very hard to break up the self-assembled viral particle. Still, we can do it (e.g. with soap!).

11/25 Most viruses, including the coronavirus, are between 50-200 nanometers – so they are truly nanoparticles. Nanoparticles have complex interactions with surfaces they are on. Same with viruses. Skin, steel, timber, fabric, paint and porcelain are very different surfaces.

12/25 When a virus invades a cell, the RNA “hijacks” the cellular machinery like a computer virus (!) and forces the cell to start to makes a lot of fresh copies of its own RNA and the various proteins that make up the virus.

13/25 These new RNA and protein molecules, self-assemble with lipids (usually readily present in the cell) to form new copies of the virus. That is, the virus does not photocopy itself, it makes copies of the building blocks which then self-assemble into new viruses!

14/25 All those new viruses eventually overwhelm the cell and it dies/explodes releasing viruses which then go on to infect more cells. In the lungs, some of these viruses end up in the airways and the mucous membranes surrounding these.

15/25 When you cough, or especially when you sneeze, tiny droplets from the airways can fly up to 10 meters (30 ft)! The larger ones are thought to be main coronavirus carriers and they can go at least 2 m (7 ft). Thus – cover your coughs & sneezes people!

16/25 These tiny droplets end on surfaces and often dry out quickly. But the viruses are still active! What happens next is all about supramolecular chemistry and how self-assembled nanoparticles (like the viruses) interact with their environment!

17/25 Now it is time to introduce a powerful supramolecular chemistry concept that effectively says: similar molecules appear to interact more strongly with each other than dissimilar ones. Wood, fabric and not to mention skin interact fairly strongly with viruses.

18/25 Contrast this with steel, porcelain and at least some plastics, e.g. teflon. The surface structure also matter – the flatter the surface the less the virus will “stick” to the surface. Rougher surfaces can actually pull the virus apart.

19/25 So why are surfaces different? The virus is held together by a combination of hydrogen bonds (like those in water) and what we call hydrophilic or “fat-like” interactions. The surface of fibres or wood for instance can form a lot of hydrogen bonds with the virus.

20/25 In contrast steel, porcelain or teflon do not form a lot of hydrogen bond with the virus. So the virus is not strongly bound to these surfaces. The virus is quite stable on these surface whereas it doesn’t stay active for as long on say fabric or wood.

21/25 For how long does the virus stay active? It depends. The SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus is thought to stay active on favourable surfaces for hours, possibly a day. Moisture (“dissolves”), sun light (UV light) and heat (molecular motions) all make the virus less stable.

22/25 The skin is an ideal surface for a virus! It is “organic” and the proteins and fatty acids in the dead cells on the surface interact with the virus through both hydrogen bonds and the “fat-like” hydrophilic interactions.

23/25 So when you touch say a steel surface with a virus particle on it, it will stick to your skin and hence get transferred onto your hands. But you are not (yet) infected. If you touch your face though, the virus can get transferred from your hands and on to your face.

24/25 And now the virus is dangerously close to the airways and the mucus type membranes in and around your mouth and eyes. So the virus can get in…and voila! You are infected (that is, unless your immune system kills the virus).

25/25 If the virus is on your hands you can pass it on by shaking someone’s else hand. Kisses, well, that's pretty obvious…It comes without saying that if someone sneezes right in your face you are kind of stuffed. Part 2 about soap coming next (25 post limit reached)!

26/39 Part 2 about soap, supramolecular chemistry and viruses. So how often do you touch your face? It turns out most people touch the face once every 2-5 minutes! Yeah, so you at high risk once the virus gets on your hands unless you can wash the active virus off.

27/39 So let’s try washing it off with plain water. It might just work. But water “only” competes with the strong “glue-like” interactions between the skin and virus via hydrogen bonds. They virus is quite sticky and may not budge. Water isn’t enough.

28/39 Soapy water is totally different. Soap contains fat-like substances knowns as amphiphiles, some structurally very similar to the lipids in the virus membrane. The soap molecules “compete” with the lipids in the virus membrane.

29/39 The soap molecules also compete with a lot other non-covalent bonds that help the proteins, RNA and the lipids to stick together. The soap is effectively “dissolving” the glue that holds the virus together. Add to that all the water.

30/39 The soap also outcompetes the interactions between the virus and the skin surface. Soon the viruses get detached and fall a part like a house of cards due to the combined action of the soap and water. The virus is gone!

31/39 The skin is quite rough and wrinkly which is why you do need a fair amount of rubbing and soaking to ensure the soap reaches very crook and nanny on the skin surface that could be hiding active viruses.

32/39 Alcohol based products, which pretty includes all “disinfectants” and “antibacterial” products contain a high-% alcohol solution, typically 60-80% ethanol, sometimes with a bit of isopropanol as well and then water + a bit of a soap.

33/39 Ethanol and other alcohols do not only readily form hydrogen bonds with the virus material but as a solvent, are more lipophilic than water. Hence alcohol do also dissolve the lipid membrane and disrupt other supramolecular interactions in the virus.

34/39 However, you need a fairly high concentration (maybe +60%) of the alcohol to get a rapid dissolution of the virus. Vodka or whiskey (usually 40% ethanol), will not dissolve the virus as quickly. Overall alcohol is not quite as good as soap at this task.

35/39 Nearly all antibacterial products contain alcohol and some soap and this does help killing viruses. But some also include “active” bacterial killing agents, like triclosan. Those, however, do basically nothing to the virus!

36/39 To sum up, viruses are almost like little grease-nanoparticles. They can stay active for many hours on surfaces and then get picked up by touch. They then get to our face and infect us because most of us touch the face quite frequently.

37/39 Water is not very effective alone in washing the virus off our hands. Alcohol based product work better. But nothing beats soap – the virus detaches from the skin and falls apart very readily in soapy water.

38/39 Here you have it – supramolecular chemistry and nanoscience tell us not only a lot about how the virus self-assembled into a functional active menace, but also how we can beat viruses with something as simple as soap.

39/39 Thank you for reading my first thread. Apologies for any mistakes in the above. I might have some virology details wrong here as I am not a virologist unlike @MackayIM who I am a big fan of! But I hope this inspires you not only to use soap but to read up on chemistry!

worried about coronavirus (covid19) part 16
tobermoryisthebestwomble · 08/03/2020 07:53

@Laks0007 this was reported on earlier this week. The NHS will look to utilise medical and nursing students and newly qualified doctors www.hsj.co.uk/acute-care/medical-students-and-new-doctors-could-be-drafted-in-to-fight-coronavirus/7027060.article

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2020 07:54

In terms of recruiting extra staff I think the government are missing a trick!

On benefits?

If you don't volunteer there's no benefits, unless you can demonstrate you are a single parent or carer who has a dependent.

(Do not be surprised by this becoming a policy)

Newjez · 08/03/2020 07:57

Small business may not fund the Tory party, but small business and the self employed do support the Tory party and make up a large part of it's membership. I would imagine they would be very reluctant to hammer small business and the self employed just before ir35 comes in. It is a very sensitive area for them.

slartibarti · 08/03/2020 07:57

Daisypond no shortage of paracetomol online.
Weldricks Pharmacy Quick delivery.
I got 3 boxes of 32 caplets yesterday.

daisypond · 08/03/2020 08:03

Ah,OK, I hadn’t thought about online.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2020 08:05

Won't be long before the weather turns a lot warmer in U.K. It sometimes turns. Wet warm at Easter. Then people will want to be outside

Temperatures in Milan this week - highs of 10 - 18C

Across the UK, March temperatures average a daily high of 10 degrees Celsius (50 degrees Fahrenheit) and a low of 3 °C (37 °F).

Across the UK, April temperatures average a daily high of 12 degrees Celsius (54 degrees Fahrenheit) and a low of 4 °C (39 °F).

Across the UK, May temperatures average a daily high of 16 degrees Celsius (60 degrees Fahrenheit) and a low of 7 °C (44 °F).

Across the UK, June temperatures average a daily high of 19 degrees Celsius (65 degrees Fahrenheit) and a low of 10 °C (49 °F).

Across the UK, July temperatures average a daily high of 21 degrees Celsius (70 degrees Fahrenheit) and a low of 12 °C (53 °F).

Across the UK, August temperatures average a daily high of 21 degrees Celsius (69 degrees Fahrenheit) and a low of 12 °C (53 °F).

I'm not quite sure why people keep clinging to the idea that an improvement in the weather is going to make a big difference in the UK when far warmer countries aren't seeing a decline due to the weather.

This is the UK. Our weather is shit.

Oakmaiden · 08/03/2020 08:09

@KenAdams

the UK whose positive rare is about 0.96%

Overall, yes. But for the past three days it has been 2.1%, 2.1% and 4.7%.

I may have a spreadsheet. Tragic, I know, but seeing trends makes me feel in control in a situation I have no control over.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2020 08:11

Small business may not fund the Tory party, but small business and the self employed do support the Tory party and make up a large part of it's membership. I would imagine they would be very reluctant to hammer small business and the self employed just before ir35 comes in. It is a very sensitive area for them.

I'd have agreed with you several years ago.

However the prime minister has literally said 'fuck business' in relation to Brexit and the last General Election saw a shift in the party away from economic conservatism to social conservatism where issues like nationalism and traditionalism from blue collar support is much more important. It's a shift that coronavirus plays into very nicely because of the idea of separation and antiglobalism are core features. Big business can capitalise from this, particularly in the long run. (workers rights and health and safety rules are dismantled in the process - in the name of an emergency you understand).

So I'm not sure it's quite as cut and dried as it has been in the past.

We shall see very soon.

Exochord · 08/03/2020 08:12

Rationing has begun. According to the news Tesco is restricting shoppers to five items of “disaster goods” - beans, uht milk, pasta, antibacterial products and Calpol.

FourTeaFallOut · 08/03/2020 08:16

How good would the weather have to be to actually make a difference, assuming that it is seasonal? Because I'm in the North East and we very rarely get decent weather until long after Easter.

VivaLeBeaver · 08/03/2020 08:16

Does anyone know which college at Oxford the affected student is from? Dd spends a lot of time in Magdalene college.....hoping it’s not that one.

EnidBlyton · 08/03/2020 08:19

I think rationing is a good idea, you are not generally allowed to buy more than 2 packets of paracetamol normally.
in my local boots were was no paracetamol yesterday
in asda there was a sign restricting the non existent hand gel also.

NewModelArmyMayhem18 · 08/03/2020 08:20

@VivaLeBeaver I read that it was New College (via that FB universities' admissions group)