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Coronavirus thread 12

999 replies

VivaLeBeaver · 04/03/2020 17:48

Can’t see one? Sorry if there is one.

OP posts:
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10
Quartz2208 · 05/03/2020 08:13

I thought there were saying for most it was just like flu - and as I have said many times the problem is people think of the flu as like a cold - if you think of it as being like proper flu for 80% of the people that fits in better

justchecking1 · 05/03/2020 08:14

If anything it's nature's way of dealing with human over population and longer life expectancy by having a mechanism that happens if human live too close to other species and have otherwise tackled known issues which normally in the past would have been fatal. Gaia theory if you will.

This^^

Has anyone seen The Happening with Mark Wahlburg? Spooky

middleager · 05/03/2020 08:16

Doctor on BBC Breakfast saying 60 per cent alcohol hand gel is what you need Hmm

Handshaking ok etc....

screamer1 · 05/03/2020 08:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FelicityFebruary · 05/03/2020 08:20

But its ok parliament will close down.
Utter scum.

middleager · 05/03/2020 08:20

And frustrating as hand sanitiser advised, but no reference that it's harder to find than hen's teeth right now.

Fourducksate · 05/03/2020 08:20

@Quartz2208

Exactly, I said exactly this to a class of nursing students yesterday, when they said ‘it’s only the flu’.

None of them had ever had flu, the aching, the hallucinations, the so weak can hardly get to the toilet.

I said to them, I was so I’ll, I laid on the bathroom floor and would have been okay if I’d died, I always thought I would fight, but at that moment, I just didn’t have the strength and wanted it to stop.

They were completely surprised by this and had no idea, it could be that bad. These are 2nd year students, who have been on placement in our hospitals for a year and will be at the ‘frontline’.

MaxNormal · 05/03/2020 08:21

Lessons from the 1918 flu pandemic

www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/health/17flu.html

middleager · 05/03/2020 08:24

BBC now admitting there is a shortage of hand san and inflated prices.
Reinforcing the 60% figure

TheRealHousewife · 05/03/2020 08:24

@MaxNormal are you able to copy & paste article as unable to read online. TIA

MaxNormal · 05/03/2020 08:24

Fourducksate I've had flu once. It hit me like a ton of bricks and I felt so unwell and in pain a few hours in that I cried.
This was followed by feeling so awful that I was terrified I'd die, followed by feeling that I'd be happy to die to make it stop.

This wasnt a severe case either, I was ambulatory again after about five days and just a bit weak and dizzy for two weeks after.

Quartz2208 · 05/03/2020 08:27

Now I have to say I am not a Boris fan - I think they only got in because the Labour alternative was so awful but they are stuck in a pretty impossible situation.

Its so new/novel that we want answers that simply arent there yet. If they tried to reassure us and were wrong or went the other way we would hate it.

And the balance between shutting things down and continuing on is not an easy choice - short term benefits vs long term losses has to be weighed up.

And really for everything to work the world needs to be on board - the Chinese are already noticing that they are getting imported cases now.

I do agree though at times like this you need a Churchill leading you not a Johnson and that is what we lack. Someone who basically says the same stuff reveals nothing etc but does it in such a way you have faith and believe in him. Our politicians cant even do the political side!

FelicityFebruary · 05/03/2020 08:28

Look at what people are doing rather than saying. Big companies with resources who get risk planning advice are stopping travel, getting their people to work from home to prevent everyone being ill at once.

For the rest of us, get sleep and exercise if you can. Reduce exposure to stressful news : just update occasionally.

This may sound totally tin foil hat but what the hell: I'm also going low carb as I'm edging to type 2 diabetic. See Dr David Unwin on Twitter and various articles published.

ofwarren · 05/03/2020 08:29

I can't share photos on this thread for some reason but I've just seen a letter from Monkwood Primary school in Rotherham.
A parent of a child at the school has been diagnosed.

Banana0pancakes · 05/03/2020 08:29

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_hospital_beds

This is where the worry lies for me. If 20% of people are hospitalised even with a conservative 40% population being infected, that's 5,360,000 people needing treatment like oxygen, that means we would need that many beds in a very condensed timescale, probably 2-3 months.

According to the data on the link we have 2.5 per 1000, so 2500 per million or 134000 for the population. If the reasonable worst case scenario came to unfold then, oh, we'd only be 10 million short.

Someone tell me my maths is wrong please haha

PartTimeDork · 05/03/2020 08:30

My thoughts:

I just knew this was not going to go well when the first plane landed bringing people home from China who could have been infected, the ground staff, wearing no protective gear, opened the plane door and fucking shook hands with the people on the plane from China, WTAF? Shock Then the bus drivers had no protective gear on, and instead of self isolating as told to, they went out to the pub the same night. I just could not believe it.

Ever since then I have been really stressed and anxious, I knew this was coming. I am not sleeping and having nightmares. I am prepping as best I can. I am in an at risk group so prob won't survive if I get it. I am also worried for my family

I am just so angry at the Gov. I think their response has been so inadequate. Have they learnt nothing from the Chinese response to try to get this under control? They only seem bothered about the economy which is going to be ruined anyway.

Appalling. They should be held accountable for all the deaths that are now going to occur.

FelicityFebruary · 05/03/2020 08:30

Please could we stop football crowds meeting up from all over the country on Saturdays, having just read Max Normal's link.

mrshoho · 05/03/2020 08:31

On Saturday my child is due to take part in a monopoly run in London with the scouts. I think it involves hundreds of kids tearing around London on foot and public transport in a competition. It's still going ahead but does make me wonder is it a good idea right now? I'm just imagining all the surfaces they'll be touching without me nagging him to wash his hands 😫 Will be sanitizing him when he gets home!

MaxNormal · 05/03/2020 08:31

@TheRealHousewife here you go.

When the Spanish flu reached the United States in the summer of 1918, it seemed to confine itself to military camps. But when it arrived in Philadelphia in September, it struck with a vengeance.

By the time officials there grasped the threat of the virus, it was too late. The disease was rampaging through the population, partly because the city had allowed large public gatherings, including a citywide parade in support of a World War I loan drive, to go on as planned. In four months, more than 12,000 Philadelphians died, an excess death rate of 719 people for every 100,000 inhabitants.

The story was quite different in St. Louis. Two weeks before Philadelphia officials began to react, doctors in St. Louis persuaded the city to require that influenza cases be registered with the health department. And two days after the first civilian cases, police officers helped the department enforce a shutdown of schools, churches and other gathering places. Infected people were quarantined in their homes.

Excess deaths in St. Louis were 347 per 100,000 people, less than half the rate in Philadelphia. Early action appeared to have saved thousands of lives.

Scientists are still studying the 1918 pandemic, the deadliest of the 20th century, looking for lessons for future outbreaks — including the possibility that H5N1, the avian influenza virus, could mutate into a form spread easily from human to human. This month, researchers published two new studies in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences comparing public-health responses in cities like St. Louis and Philadelphia.

Using mathematical models, they reported that such large differences in death rates could be explained by the ways the cities carried out prevention measures, especially in their timing. Cities that instituted quarantine, school closings, bans on public gatherings and other such procedures early in the epidemic had peak death rates 30 percent to 50 percent lower than those that did not.

“It had been received wisdom that these interventions didn’t work,” said Dr. Richard Hatchett, the lead author of one of the studies, “because they looked at the variability between cities and concluded that there was some other factor than the interventions that caused the differing outcomes.

“That we were able to go back and ask the right questions,” Dr. Hatchett said, “is a function of a lot of modeling work that we did previously.”

Dr. Hatchett, who is a researcher at the National Institutes of Health, said the findings might hold lessons for the 21st century. “When multiple interventions were introduced early, they were very effective in 1918,” he said, “and that certainly offers hope that they would be similarly useful in an epidemic today if we didn’t have an effective vaccine.”

ImageThe reaction was much slower in Philadelphia, where the police escorted a flu victim.
The reaction was much slower in Philadelphia, where the police escorted a flu victim.Credit...Urban Archives/Temple University Libraries, via The Philadelphia Inquirer
A two-week difference in response times, according to the researchers, is long enough for the number of people infected in an influenza epidemic to double three to five times.

Dr. Martin Cetron, director for global migration and quarantine at the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, found reason for optimism in the study results.

“The thing I find encouraging about the Hatchett paper,” he said, “is that when you look back to 1918, you find that those who used nonpharmaceutical measures effectively were able to mitigate the impact of the severe pandemics, and this is consistent with some of the 21st-century simulation models.”

The second study, in the same issue of The Proceedings, suggests that in one sense preventive measures can be too effective. In an influenza epidemic, a certain number of people survive the illness and are immune to reinfection. As these numbers increase, the epidemic fades.

But an effective prevention program without a vaccine can leave enough people uninfected and still susceptible to the virus to start the epidemic again as soon as the controls are lifted. This is what happened in St. Louis. On Nov. 14, 1918 — in high spirits three days after the armistice that ended the war, and with influenza cases declining — the city reopened schools and businesses. Two weeks later, the second wave of the epidemic struck, this time with children making up 30 percent to 40 percent of the infections. Controls were immediately reinstituted.

The study examined the course of the epidemic in 23 cities: San Francisco, St. Louis, Milwaukee and Kansas City, Mo., had the most effective prevention programs, and time was of the essence. If restrictions were introduced too late or lifted too early, success rates declined substantially.

Neil Ferguson, a co-author of the second study and a professor of epidemiology at Imperial College London, explained in a telephone interview that the most successful interventions were in communities where the political and health authorities broadly agreed on what needed to be done and got significant cooperation from the public.

The key, Dr. Ferguson said, is to tune an imperfect intervention perfectly so that a single peak of minimal size is the result. Although no cities succeeded in doing this, those that got closest, like St. Louis, carried out early interventions before the first peak, and then reinstituted them when transmission rates began to rise again.

What these results mean for a future epidemic is not clear. “If avian flu became a pandemic tomorrow,” Dr. Ferguson said, “we would start a crash program to make a vaccine.”

But he added that rigid preventive measures like quarantines, mandated mask wearing and widespread business closings would still need to be put in place.

“What our study shows,” he continued, “is that interventions even without a vaccine can be effective in blocking transmission. What’s much less certain is whether society is prepared to bear the costs of implementing such intrusive and costly measures for the months that would be required to manufacture a vaccine.”

WokClock · 05/03/2020 08:34

@Motorina - thank you for your clear post about the 80%

FelicityFebruary · 05/03/2020 08:34

Part Time Dork, nothing is written in stone.

I'm determined to do my best to survive and start a flipping revolution against the silly hand shaking twerps!

FelicityFebruary · 05/03/2020 08:35

Max normal tell Piers Morgan. He seems to get it and has a huge platform.

ofwarren · 05/03/2020 08:37

Palestine confirms first 4 cases of coronavirus in the West Bank t.co/eUoE2b20hL

LizzieMacQueen · 05/03/2020 08:38

As an island we should have the capacity to contain this. Drastic of course but if flights/ferries/eurostar/channel tunnel are stopped simultaneously. Everyone is put on isolation, say from 22.00 Friday 6 March for 14 days.

Well everyone would exclude medical emergencies and women in labour. Armed forces. Essential services so water/electricity continues. Homeless provided with shelter.

Armed forces drop basic survival food and basics to every UK household to try to allay fears of food running out.

Okay, it's a long shot/idealistic scenario but if even 70% of the population followed this then wouldn't the virus that is already here die out?

I'd also add (as I'm still in dreamland) that everyone before they get released from home isolation has to pass a negative Clovid19 test.

yolofish · 05/03/2020 08:40

Dr. Hillary on GMB is saying that stockpiling is selfish... and that if we buy everything now there'll be nothing on the shelves in a month! He obiously has never heard of supply chains.

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