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Conflict in the Middle East

(Lack of) US Iran Peace Agreement Part 5

689 replies

OnePeppyFatball · 14/09/2026 10:37

Part 5

OP posts:
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trumpredcard · 09/10/2026 20:10

TopPocketFind · 09/10/2026 19:59

It's going so well....

https://bsky.app/profile/paleofuture.bsky.social/post/3mxhn6ysqjc2g
Trump says we’re now going to be getting diesel from Russia

Any help for Ukraine now dead in the rush to get diesel supplies. I suspect, with no proof whatsoever, that the Russia diesel supply deal is a quid pro quo that involves withdrawing or withholding help. Just inference based on Trump and Putin's power dynamic relationship.
Sanctions that were eased, now extended ... for 'two weeks'?

TopPocketFind · 09/10/2026 20:19

And Russia is aiding Iran

rainingsnoring · 09/10/2026 23:36

TopPocketFind · 09/10/2026 19:59

It's going so well....

https://bsky.app/profile/paleofuture.bsky.social/post/3mxhn6ysqjc2g
Trump says we’re now going to be getting diesel from Russia

Trump is clearly feeling the pressure. He has finally grasped the fact that his voters actually care about fuel prices, despite the fact that he has said that he doesn't care a couple of months ago. The figures in the tweet are actually very small in terms of barrels and world usage.
The whole thing seems to be aimed at not very smart voters.

I wonder what he has promised Putin in return. I wonder what Putin's private thoughts are about Trump and his wars.

rainingsnoring · 09/10/2026 23:40

BelleHathor · 09/10/2026 13:21

From Larry Johnson's website as you with his connections as a former CIA analyst, insiders are always getting him information to release (remember Trump and nukes earlier this year]
https://sonar21.com/the-five-year-fuel-crisis-why-the-world-economy-is-paying-for-a-war-it-thinks-is-ending/
[Copied the full article in case it's inaccessible]

Once again Karl W. Miller has put numbers to a problem that most of the commentariat still treats as a temporary price spike. His latest forward outlook, “The Five-Year Global Energy Crisis,” dated October 3, makes an argument that should alarm every finance ministry from Berlin to Jakarta. The war’s damage to Gulf energy infrastructure is not a disruption that ends when the shooting stops. It is a reconstruction problem measured in years and trillions of dollars, and while it is solved, the world will be short of the fuels that run its economy.

A ceasefire is not a repair crew
Miller’s central insight is simple. A ceasefire can reopen a shipping lane overnight. It cannot manufacture a compressor, mobilize commissioning engineers, or pay a contractor. The next phase of this crisis, he writes, is a competition for cash, equipment, qualified contractors and finished fuel.

His cost model is sobering. In his aggressive case, rebuilding the damaged Gulf energy system requires $1.16 trillion in total program funding. Under prolonged stress, with scarce equipment, rising prices and delays, the bill reaches $2.53 trillion. Even his faster case runs to nearly half a trillion dollars. He is careful to say these are model outputs, not contractor quotes, and that the true extent of the damage is the largest unknown. An April assessment put energy-related repair costs at only $34-58 billion. But the direction of his argument doesn’t depend on the exact figure. Every month of delay makes the same repair more expensive, because the global market for specialized equipment and crews is already stretched by LNG expansions, refinery maintenance and power projects elsewhere.

The timeline is just as stark. Weighted by cost, the rebuild averages almost five years from today. Only 60% of the work finishes by 2031, and the longest-lead packages run to seven years.

The money problem comes first
The most original part of Miller’s analysis is about cash. A damaged refinery may be worth rebuilding and technically repairable, and still sit idle because the government that owns it has to pay for food imports, salaries, electricity and water first. Lost export revenue doesn’t stop those bills. When a state borrows to keep paying them, that money can’t also pay an engineering contractor.

Iraq shows the problem in practice. In July, it faced a monthly public salary obligation of about $5.96 billion with a funding shortfall of $2.52 billion. A government in that position rebuilds nothing. It pays its people, and the export capacity that would restore its revenue waits. Miller’s warning is that this trap can stop reconstruction before it starts: without engineering funds and vendor deposits, factory slots go to other customers and delivery dates slip.

The fuel gap is the global transmission belt

For the rest of the world, the damage arrives through diesel and jet fuel. The figures Miller cites are already severe. Gulf diesel net exports in August were just over a quarter of prewar levels. Combined Gulf and Russian diesel exports were 1.6 million barrels a day below February. Global oil stocks had fallen 507 million barrels since February, and global refinery throughput in August was 4.2 million barrels a day below a year earlier.

Looking forward, Miller’s severe case assumes a shortfall of at least 3 million barrels a day of diesel and jet fuel, every year for five years. That’s about 1.1 billion barrels a year and 5.5 billion barrels over the period. He is explicit that this is a deliberate stress test, not a forecast, and that a faster-recovery path closes the gap by the fourth year. But the stress case is a plausible one. Restored capacity can be absorbed by refinery outages, deferred maintenance, recovering demand and delivery bottlenecks. Damaged refineries don’t come back at full capacity on the first day.

Inventories cannot fill a gap of that size for that long. Five and a half billion barrels is far beyond any country’s emergency stocks, which is why drawing down Europe’s reserves now, under pressure from Washington, only buys weeks. Without enough new supply, the balance can close in only one way: by using less fuel.

How the shortage reprices everything
The economic damage extends well beyond the missing barrels. When supply falls short, buyers bid for the marginal cargo, and that bid sets the price for all the fuel still being bought. Miller’s illustration: a $40-a-barrel premium across 10 million barrels a day of purchases adds $146 billion a year to fuel bills. Applied only to the 3 million missing barrels, it would add $43.8 billion and badly understate the real cost.

Scarcity also reprices credit. At $150 a barrel, a buyer purchasing 1 million barrels a day needs $2.25 billion to hold 15 extra days of inventory, and $3 billion at $200. Longer voyages tie up more fuel and more money in transit. A supplier can have the barrels while its customer can’t get a letter of credit. And a cargo that wins a bidding war for one country leaves another short. Competition redistributes the shortage before it eliminates it.

Who absorbs the shock
Diesel carries the crisis into the real economy. It runs road freight, farm machinery, mines, construction fleets and backup generators, none of which can switch fuels quickly. Higher diesel costs pass straight into freight rates and food prices, and when diesel isn’t available at any price, activity simply stops. Jet fuel carries the shock into aviation: higher fares, fewer routes and higher air cargo surcharges. Kerosene hits the households with the least room to adjust, in countries where it is still used for heating, cooking and lighting.

Miller’s regional assessment follows the money:

  • Europe competes for replacement diesel and jet cargoes while running its refineries close to their limits.
  • South and Southeast Asia face higher import bills, currency pressure and greater need for trade credit.
  • Africa and smaller importers are the most vulnerable. Tenders fail, credit lines run out, and small cargoes become uneconomic long before global stocks are exhausted.
  • The United States and other Atlantic suppliers face export demand competing with their own diesel needs, with refineries running so hard they have little tolerance for outages.

The ultimate balancing mechanism is demand destruction: freight deferred, low-margin factories idled, flights cancelled, and poorer importers losing every bidding contest. Miller warns against mistaking that for recovery. Lower consumption caused by rationing through price or credit is not a repaired energy system.

Case study: Europe
Europe shows what Miller’s framework looks like in practice. The continent burns about 5 million barrels of diesel a day, fuel for the trucks that move its goods, the tractors that plant its crops and, as winter approaches, the boilers that heat millions of homes.

How much does Europe produce, and how much does it import? Running flat out, EU refineries can produce roughly 4.5 to 5 million barrels a day of diesel and gasoil, and they are already operating close to their maximum. That leaves Europe roughly 85-90% self-sufficient at best. The remaining 10-15% comes from imports, and that margin sets the price for the entire market. Kepler puts the EU’s diesel imports from outside the bloc at about 580,000 barrels a day this year. Britain, which lost much of its refining capacity over the past two decades, is far more exposed: it imports more than half the diesel it uses.

The origin of those imports has changed dramatically. Russia was long Europe’s largest outside supplier until the EU embargoed Russian diesel in 2023. The Gulf filled much of the gap, until the war cut it off. Since March, the United States has supplied more than half of Europe’s diesel imports, and more than two-thirds in August and September. Europe has traded dependence on Moscow for dependence on Washington, and Washington has just shown it is willing to use that leverage, threatening an export ban unless Europe released its emergency stocks.

Europe’s diesel depends on imported crude as well. Its refineries run almost entirely on foreign oil: the EU imports about 97% of the crude it consumes. But the Gulf was never Europe’s main crude supplier. In 2025, Gulf Cooperation Council states supplied only about 7% of EU crude imports, Iraq another 5.8%. Europe’s crude now comes chiefly from the United States, Norway and Kazakhstan, which together supplied nearly half of EU petroleum imports in the second quarter of 2026. The volume has held steady; the bill rose 56%. But the crude isn’t the crude Europe’s refineries were built for. Much of Europe’s refining capacity was designed around medium sour crudes such as Russia’s Urals, with conversion units that turn the heavier part of the barrel into diesel. American shale crude is light and sweet. It refines readily into gasoline and naphtha, but it yields proportionally less diesel and jet fuel, the very products Europe is short of. As Miller notes, sour crude isn’t uniquely required to make diesel; the replacement barrels work, but not at the same yield or cost. The Gulf supply Europe really lost was finished diesel from Gulf refineries, and that is what the United States has replaced. The result is a double dependence: Washington is now Europe’s largest supplier of both the crude its refineries run and the diesel they can’t make. Even the non-American barrels carry risk. Most Kazakh crude reaches Europe through a Black Sea terminal at Novorossiysk, on Russian soil, a route that has already been hit by Ukrainian drones.

How long can Europe store diesel? This is where Europe’s apparent cushion turns out to be thinner than it looks. Unlike crude oil, which can sit in salt caverns for decades, diesel degrades. Under ideal conditions, conventional ultra-low-sulfur diesel can typically be stored for six to twelve months. With stabilizers, biocides and well-managed tanks, that can be extended to 18 to 24 months. Oxidation forms gums and sediment, water collects, and microbes grow in the fuel.

European diesel has an added problem. The EU standard, EN 590, allows up to 7% biodiesel in road diesel, and biodiesel oxidizes faster than petroleum diesel. Concawe, the European refiners’ research association, recommends a maximum storage time of six months for biodiesel and current blends containing it. Strategic stockholders can extend that by holding biodiesel-free product, but even then the reserve has to be rotated, sold into the market and replaced with fresh fuel on a cycle of a year or two.

That changes what Europe’s reserve really is. EU countries and Britain held about 52 million tonnes of gasoil and diesel in June, including nearly 38 million tonnes of emergency reserves, roughly two months of consumption. But a diesel reserve is not a stockpile Europe can fill once and forget. It is a stock that must be continually turned over, which means continually bought, and bought in the same tight market Miller describes. Every barrel released now to satisfy Washington has to be replaced later, at a higher price, from suppliers who are already short. And because diesel degrades, Europe can’t solve the problem by buying extra while it’s cheap and holding it for years. A reserve with a shelf life of a year or two cannot cover a structural deficit that Miller’s severe case puts at five years.

The conclusion for Europe is stark. It produces most of its own diesel but has no spare refining capacity. It depends on imports for the margin that sets prices, and those imports now come mostly from a single supplier that has shown it will use them as leverage. And its emergency reserve is both perishable and finite.

In Miller’s terms, Europe is one of the buyers most exposed to the marginal cargo, and the least able to wait out a five-year shortage.

The implications for the global economy
Put together, Miller’s analysis describes a world economy facing a prolonged supply shock, not a temporary one. Fuel costs feed into nearly everything, so central banks fighting the inflation this crisis has already produced will face pressure for longer than they expect. Emerging-market importers face a combination of high fuel bills, weak currencies and tighter credit that has historically produced debt crises and unrest. And the reconstruction itself will absorb capital, equipment and specialist labor that would otherwise build new energy supply elsewhere, so the shortage may delay the investment needed to end it.

Miller’s strategic conclusion is the one policymakers least want to hear. Ending the conflict removes one source of disruption. It does not repair the energy system, which requires a separate sequence of financing, engineering, manufacturing, construction and commissioning that will take years. Until that is done, reliable fuel and the cash to buy it will determine which economies absorb the burden. Neither will be distributed evenly.

Thanks for linking to this. I've heard LJ's blog mentioned on podcasts but never looked it up. That's a v negative potential forecast. That said, I think the world runs into major problems by next year. I've long thought we are heading for a big recession. Perhaps it will be worse and longer lasting now. Wait for Warsh to change from being a bit hawkish to $$$ printing at massive scale.

Newbutoldfather · 10/10/2026 07:36

It is always hard to forecast recessions and stock market crashes, but the amber light has been flashing for quite some time now.

The U.S stock market is priced to perfection, debt at both the government and private level is increasing, and now we have an oil shock.

None of this will help Iran, though. Putin has to see that being offered an alliance with Trump (of sorts) will be far more beneficial to him than helping Iran. So, Russia will be gifted Eastern Ukraine while a bemused EU looks on and whinges, and the U.S will continue to isolate and attack Iran

If Russia treat with the U.S (which I think will happen as long as Trump and Putin remain leaders), who does Iran have left? It’s alienated the Gulf States (who really won’t understand and forgive Iran firing missiles at them!) and Turkey and Pakistan have vowed to support the Saudis. Iran have only China left to hold them up.

As for the Gulf States, they will go with whomever will allow them to get their oil out and lead a peaceful life. That probably means peace with Israel and an alliance with the U.S.

The only really open question is China. Will they accept the above or actually try to defend Iran in a more significant way? And how will they treat Russia’s new energy deal with the U.S.?

This seems to me to be the new ‘Great Game’; a matter of personalities and power rather than the post war liberal rules-based international era.

Of course, it is fraught with uncertainties, not least of which is that all the major nations involved have nuclear weapons.

So, yes, I do think that we are headed for a major recession, but that will make the big nations more aggressive, not less so.

Newbutoldfather · 10/10/2026 08:10

And China will probably get Taiwan, not that soon, but sometime over the next couple of decades.

I don’t think the U.S either wants to or even could defend it militarily.

www.wsj.com/world/asia/chinas-next-gray-zone-target-an-island-chain-critical-to-u-s-defense-of-taiwan-f4233818?st=oGXpiT&reflink=article_copyURL_share

BelleHathor · 10/10/2026 08:34

rainingsnoring · 09/10/2026 23:36

Trump is clearly feeling the pressure. He has finally grasped the fact that his voters actually care about fuel prices, despite the fact that he has said that he doesn't care a couple of months ago. The figures in the tweet are actually very small in terms of barrels and world usage.
The whole thing seems to be aimed at not very smart voters.

I wonder what he has promised Putin in return. I wonder what Putin's private thoughts are about Trump and his wars.

Mucho pressure on the Orange one. He's just thrown Ukraine and Europe under the bus, get the 🍿.

Give it 48 hours as this news was released at 3pm Friday USA time. That gives traders enough time to adjust their positions in the market.

Remember Putin's party did less well at the recent elections. Russians are tired of Ukraine hitting their infrastructure and Putin responding in a muted manner. They're watching the 2 clowns Kushner and Witkoff "hold talks" with their own clown Kirill Dmitriev with no results (Anchorage anyone?). Some Russians are asking the same questions about their oligarch class and who their leadership works for.

It's also interesting that if Trump wants the diesel delivered he'll have to restrain (or get the CIA et al to stop) Zelensky's deep strikes into Russia.

P.s. there are unconfirmed reports that Ukraine has already struck Russian infrastructure
https://www.reddit.com/r/oil/comments/1x22ur8/ukraine_has_just_struck_the_nznp_rostovsky_oil/

TopPocketFind · 10/10/2026 10:04

rainingsnoring · 09/10/2026 23:36

Trump is clearly feeling the pressure. He has finally grasped the fact that his voters actually care about fuel prices, despite the fact that he has said that he doesn't care a couple of months ago. The figures in the tweet are actually very small in terms of barrels and world usage.
The whole thing seems to be aimed at not very smart voters.

I wonder what he has promised Putin in return. I wonder what Putin's private thoughts are about Trump and his wars.

It would cover about a day and a half worth of US demand, according to the US Energy Information Administration.

trumpredcard · 10/10/2026 10:35

It’s alienated the Gulf States (who really won’t understand and forgive Iran firing missiles at them!)

I could be wrong but don't agree with the analysis in parenthesis and remember the song from Sesame Street - "One of us is not like the others" even within the context of Arab vs Persians. There's also the commmonality of a shared religion in the GCC. I will ask my contacts in the ME what they think about your scenario.

As for the Gulf States, they will go with whomever will allow them to get their oil out and lead a peaceful life. That probably means peace with Israel and an alliance with the U.S.

This suggests that the GCC will have learned nothing about the reliability of the US as an ally and also be willing to get in bed with the enemy. I'm uneasy with this assessment.

RedTagAlan · 10/10/2026 11:07

Newbutoldfather · 10/10/2026 07:36

It is always hard to forecast recessions and stock market crashes, but the amber light has been flashing for quite some time now.

The U.S stock market is priced to perfection, debt at both the government and private level is increasing, and now we have an oil shock.

None of this will help Iran, though. Putin has to see that being offered an alliance with Trump (of sorts) will be far more beneficial to him than helping Iran. So, Russia will be gifted Eastern Ukraine while a bemused EU looks on and whinges, and the U.S will continue to isolate and attack Iran

If Russia treat with the U.S (which I think will happen as long as Trump and Putin remain leaders), who does Iran have left? It’s alienated the Gulf States (who really won’t understand and forgive Iran firing missiles at them!) and Turkey and Pakistan have vowed to support the Saudis. Iran have only China left to hold them up.

As for the Gulf States, they will go with whomever will allow them to get their oil out and lead a peaceful life. That probably means peace with Israel and an alliance with the U.S.

The only really open question is China. Will they accept the above or actually try to defend Iran in a more significant way? And how will they treat Russia’s new energy deal with the U.S.?

This seems to me to be the new ‘Great Game’; a matter of personalities and power rather than the post war liberal rules-based international era.

Of course, it is fraught with uncertainties, not least of which is that all the major nations involved have nuclear weapons.

So, yes, I do think that we are headed for a major recession, but that will make the big nations more aggressive, not less so.

Quote " That probably means peace with Israel and an alliance with the U.S."

How do you work that out ?

Israel is a small country in the region, and technically nobody is at war with them. Yeah, there are the "Iranian Proxies", but as I have posted many times, I have seen no evidence that they are fully staffed and funded by Iran. That is, if Iran fell tomorrow, the people fighting Israel would still be there. Because their cause is there.

And look at who buys the most crude.

  1. mainland China: US$295.4 billion (25.2% of imported crude oil)
  2. United States: $146.8 billion (12.5%)
  3. India: $138.8 billion (11.8%)
  4. South Korea: $75.3 billion (6.4%)
  5. Japan: $64.3 billion (5.5%)
  6. Germany: $40.7 billion (3.5%)
  7. Netherlands: $40.1 billion (3.4%)
  8. Spain: $32.7 billion (2.8%)
  9. Thailand: $29.1 billion (2.5%)
  10. France: $27.8 billion (2.4%)
  11. Singapore: $25.7 billion (2.2%)
  12. United Kingdom: $25.7 billion (2.2%)
  13. Italy: $25.2 billion (2.1%)
  14. Taiwan: $21.7 billion (1.8%)
  15. Belgium: $20.1 billion (1.7%)

Source

Crude Oil Imports by Country 2025 (worldstopexports.com)

If you are a country and your economy is based on selling something, would it not make sense to be pals with your biggest customer ? A customer who incidentally, is probably best placed for supplying the equipment needed to handle the oil.

And you have India there who have a massive demand for gas.

Edit to add. Also the PRC apparently have spare refining capacity. So what they can buy is less limited by that.

Crude Oil Imports by Country 2025

Crude oil imports by country in 2025 a searchable database of 100 key crude oil buyer nations

https://www.worldstopexports.com/crude-oil-imports-by-country/

trumpredcard · 10/10/2026 11:46

Early response from UAE contact is that people there are more concerned about the Houthis in Saudi and the conflict escalating with Turkey and Pakistan 'joining in'.

This article (might have been posted here B4) is filled with seeming caveats from Pakistan that point to uncertainty for onlookers trying to predict what will happen next.

https://edition.cnn.com/2026/10/07/middleeast/houthis-attack-saudi-airports-latam-intl

Pakistan confirms it has troops in Saudi as conflict with Yemen’s Houthi rebels escalates | CNN

Key Saudi ally Pakistan has confirmed it has troops stationed in the Gulf kingdom, as Iran-backed Houthi rebels in Yemen continue cross-border attacks with deadly assaults on airports.

https://edition.cnn.com/2026/10/07/middleeast/houthis-attack-saudi-airports-latam-intl

trumpredcard · 10/10/2026 11:58

RedTagAlan · 10/10/2026 11:07

Quote " That probably means peace with Israel and an alliance with the U.S."

How do you work that out ?

Israel is a small country in the region, and technically nobody is at war with them. Yeah, there are the "Iranian Proxies", but as I have posted many times, I have seen no evidence that they are fully staffed and funded by Iran. That is, if Iran fell tomorrow, the people fighting Israel would still be there. Because their cause is there.

And look at who buys the most crude.

  1. mainland China: US$295.4 billion (25.2% of imported crude oil)
  2. United States: $146.8 billion (12.5%)
  3. India: $138.8 billion (11.8%)
  4. South Korea: $75.3 billion (6.4%)
  5. Japan: $64.3 billion (5.5%)
  6. Germany: $40.7 billion (3.5%)
  7. Netherlands: $40.1 billion (3.4%)
  8. Spain: $32.7 billion (2.8%)
  9. Thailand: $29.1 billion (2.5%)
  10. France: $27.8 billion (2.4%)
  11. Singapore: $25.7 billion (2.2%)
  12. United Kingdom: $25.7 billion (2.2%)
  13. Italy: $25.2 billion (2.1%)
  14. Taiwan: $21.7 billion (1.8%)
  15. Belgium: $20.1 billion (1.7%)

Source

Crude Oil Imports by Country 2025 (worldstopexports.com)

If you are a country and your economy is based on selling something, would it not make sense to be pals with your biggest customer ? A customer who incidentally, is probably best placed for supplying the equipment needed to handle the oil.

And you have India there who have a massive demand for gas.

Edit to add. Also the PRC apparently have spare refining capacity. So what they can buy is less limited by that.

Edited

The 'follow the money' argument works for me. The question is how far MbS is enmeshed with the WH Regime and whether he is either willing or able to untangle himself.
If he wants to continue with using vulnerable land based export/import infrastructure - which makes sense - he will need US supplied matériel to support it. Or switch supplier, which will be very expensive.
Actually, a forward thinking person might identify this point as a nexus for building in redundancies/alternatives.

And China could come knocking with joint ventures galore.

OnePeppyFatball · 11/10/2026 08:56

Stampy feet time.

“Donald Trump has called for Volodymyr Zelensky to be ousted, saying Ukraine needs a new leader who can end the war with Russia.
Ukrainian strikes on Moscow’s oil refineries provoked a furious response from the US president, who had agreed a deal to buy diesel from Vladimir Putin a day earlier.
Responding to two drone attacks on Saturday, Mr Trump said: “[Mr Zelensky] better damn well stop.
“I suggest they get a new leader who can make a deal.””

Excerpt From
“Trump: Zelensky must be ousted”
Natasha Leake, Camilla Turner, Lily Shanagher
The Telegraph
https://apple.news/A-quupf3ISs2Wndofj8AtUw
This material may be protected by copyright.

Trump: Zelensky must be ousted — The Telegraph

White House anger at Ukrainian strikes on fuel facilities threatens to deepen strain with Britain

https://apple.news/A-quupf3ISs2Wndofj8AtUw

OP posts:
rainingsnoring · 11/10/2026 09:33

OnePeppyFatball · 11/10/2026 08:56

Stampy feet time.

“Donald Trump has called for Volodymyr Zelensky to be ousted, saying Ukraine needs a new leader who can end the war with Russia.
Ukrainian strikes on Moscow’s oil refineries provoked a furious response from the US president, who had agreed a deal to buy diesel from Vladimir Putin a day earlier.
Responding to two drone attacks on Saturday, Mr Trump said: “[Mr Zelensky] better damn well stop.
“I suggest they get a new leader who can make a deal.””

Excerpt From
“Trump: Zelensky must be ousted”
Natasha Leake, Camilla Turner, Lily Shanagher
The Telegraph
https://apple.news/A-quupf3ISs2Wndofj8AtUw
This material may be protected by copyright.

Zelensky always stomps his feet when things don't go his way and has bitten the 'hand that feeds him' a number of times. I wonder whether Trump will be annoyed enough to actually get rid of him. I'm sure the European leaders are all extremely angry wrt Trump's behaviour.

rainingsnoring · 11/10/2026 09:36

trumpredcard · 10/10/2026 11:46

Early response from UAE contact is that people there are more concerned about the Houthis in Saudi and the conflict escalating with Turkey and Pakistan 'joining in'.

This article (might have been posted here B4) is filled with seeming caveats from Pakistan that point to uncertainty for onlookers trying to predict what will happen next.

https://edition.cnn.com/2026/10/07/middleeast/houthis-attack-saudi-airports-latam-intl

That makes sense. The problem is, the ME has long been an unstable region. If you destablise one area, it inevitably has a knock on effect elsewhere. The US clearly never thought this through and I doubt the Israelis care.
I've said a few times that this war was a disaster from the start and things could get much worse. I hope to be totally wrong in my fears.

rainingsnoring · 11/10/2026 09:41

Newbutoldfather · 10/10/2026 07:36

It is always hard to forecast recessions and stock market crashes, but the amber light has been flashing for quite some time now.

The U.S stock market is priced to perfection, debt at both the government and private level is increasing, and now we have an oil shock.

None of this will help Iran, though. Putin has to see that being offered an alliance with Trump (of sorts) will be far more beneficial to him than helping Iran. So, Russia will be gifted Eastern Ukraine while a bemused EU looks on and whinges, and the U.S will continue to isolate and attack Iran

If Russia treat with the U.S (which I think will happen as long as Trump and Putin remain leaders), who does Iran have left? It’s alienated the Gulf States (who really won’t understand and forgive Iran firing missiles at them!) and Turkey and Pakistan have vowed to support the Saudis. Iran have only China left to hold them up.

As for the Gulf States, they will go with whomever will allow them to get their oil out and lead a peaceful life. That probably means peace with Israel and an alliance with the U.S.

The only really open question is China. Will they accept the above or actually try to defend Iran in a more significant way? And how will they treat Russia’s new energy deal with the U.S.?

This seems to me to be the new ‘Great Game’; a matter of personalities and power rather than the post war liberal rules-based international era.

Of course, it is fraught with uncertainties, not least of which is that all the major nations involved have nuclear weapons.

So, yes, I do think that we are headed for a major recession, but that will make the big nations more aggressive, not less so.

I think we agree that a recession is on the cards, though, as you say, the timing is very difficult.

I don't agree with the rest of your analysis.
The Russian diesel is small fry. It's just something for Trump to throw at the voters at this stage. I do get the impression that Trump does want the Ukraine war to stop and does want his 'deal'. Zelensky has already refused to comply with Trump's request to stop attacking Russian FF infrastructure so the relationship between those two may be permanently fractured. The Europeans clearly have a very different view on this compared to Trump.

Newbutoldfather · 11/10/2026 11:11

@rainingsnoring ,

‘The Russian diesel is small fry. It's just something for Trump to throw at the voters at this stage. I do get the impression that Trump does want the Ukraine war to stop and does want his 'deal'. Zelensky has already refused to comply with Trump's request to stop attacking Russian FF infrastructure so the relationship between those two may be permanently fractured. The Europeans clearly have a very different view on this compared to Trump.’

You say you disagree with my analysis but it sounds like you at least partially agree.

The diesel is reasonably small but it is symbolic. You can’t sanction someone and trumpet (no pun intended!) a diesel deal simultaneously. If Russia and the U.S have a rapprochement, where does that leave Ukraine? And where does it leave Iran?

Europe have a very different view, but that is literally all it is. They are hobbled between debt and privilege. No one will work an extra day a week for Ukraine, or genuinely risk going to war over it.

So, the global situation is pretty much as I described. I am not really sure which aspect you disagree with.

trumpredcard · 11/10/2026 11:40

Really for discussion on a different thread, but I don't think that Z stomps his feet when things don't go his way, at all. He even wore a suit to his second Trump meeting! And now this:

Zelensky offers energy truce to Putin after Trump row
We will stop if Russia does, Ukraine’s leader says, hours after US president called for him to be replaced
(The Times)

President Zelensky has announced that Ukraine is prepared to stop attacks on Russian refineries if Russia stops its strikes on Ukrainian energy infrastructure, adding that strikes could stop as “early as today”.
“The real cause of the war in Europe is Russia and Russia alone. It is possible to stop strikes on energy infrastructure as early as today, but Putin does not want to do so” he said on X. “Any de-escalation steps must be reciprocal and backed by real guarantees.”
He added that he would continue conversations with European leaders and work on additional defence packages.
President Trump had said it was “time for Ukraine to get a new president” after Britain and its allies rallied behind President ­Zelensky in an escalating row over Kyiv’s long-range attacks on ­Russian oil refineries.
One day after announcing plans to buy more than one million ­tonnes of diesel from Russia, Trump said Ukraine’s airstrikes were driving up American fuel prices and creating “problems for the world”. His deal seeks to lower energy costs before next month’s midterm elections.
The US president told reporters outside the White House on Saturday: “Zelensky could have ­settled this war multiple times, but he chooses not to. We said, ‘You can do whatever you want to ­Russia, don’t hit the refineries, because that’s a world problem.’
“And he [Zelensky] wants to make problems for the world. He wants to make problems for our farmers, our ranchers with diesel fuel because Russia supplies a large portion of the diesel fuel throughout the world … So what does he do? He goes and hits the diesel fuel … So he better damn well stop.
“I suggest they get a new leader who can make a deal.”

Hours after Trump announced the deal, described by described by Zelensky as a “gift” to President Putin, overnight Russian airstrikes killed at least 23 people in the Ukrainian city of Zaporizhzhia. This included three children.
Amid an outpouring of anger and disbelief among European politicians and security officials, the British government said it would continue to impose its “toughest sanctions regime ever” on Russia, making clear that the UK would not follow the US in agreeing to buy diesel from the Kremlin

trumpredcard · 11/10/2026 11:46

Looks like the concerns of my UAE contact were justified, as the latest Houthi attack on airport shows.

Riyadh’s civil aviation authority confirmed that an American was among those killed in the strike and that 309 others were injured.

Houthis warn further strikes are possible
Yemen's Houthi rebels have warned passengers and airlines against using airports in Saudi Arabia.
On Sunday morning the Iran-backed group said Saudi airports were regarded as "potential targets and sites for operations by our forces".
Yahya Saree, the group's military spokesman, urged "everyone to take our warnings seriously".
There has been a renewed offensive by Saudi-backed Yemeni government forces against the Houthis.
Despite dozens of Saudi airstrikes, the rebels have retained territory around the strategic Bab al-Mandeb Strait and tightened their siege of Taiz, the third-largest city in Yemen.

UN and EU condemn Houthi strikes on civilians
The United Nations and European Commission have condemned the deadly missile strike on Riyadh airport, warning of the dangers of further escalation in the Middle East.
António Guterres, the UN secretary-general, said: “Attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure are a violation of international law. These attacks must cease immediately.”
Ursula von der Leyen, the European Commission president, warned: “Attacks by Iran's proxies are pushing the region into a spiral of violence.”

Trump: US could 'move quickly' to intervene
President Trump has said the United States could join Saudi Arabia's military campaign against the Houthis after the deadly attack on Riyadh airport on Saturday.
Trump, who has so far declined to intervene directly in the conflict, said that he was reconsidering his position.
"We may. We’re going to look at it. We just found out about the recent attack, so we’ll make a decision. We move very quickly,” he told reporters.
The US has already sent military and intelligence personnel to Saudi Arabia to assist with targeting, according to a source.
The Times

trumpredcard · 11/10/2026 12:20

Evidence that we need to be skeptical even of official US announcements.
Remember the report about the last US troops leaving Iraq being the definitive end of the Iraq War.
A family member in the US military has just been posted to Iraq. I doubt they will be deployed alone.

Newbutoldfather · 11/10/2026 16:35

Second attack on Riyadh airport.

Maybe I am not a great ‘4 dimensional chess’ player, but I have no idea what the Houthis expect to happen from this that could be in any way good for them.

Against them they now have the U.S, Israel, Saudi, Turkey and Pakistan (and probably the entire rest of the western world…..and nearly forgot, the rest of Yemen.

And on their side (maybe) Iran

I really wouldn’t want to be a Houthi right now.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cqy7lxd104xet

RedTagAlan · 11/10/2026 17:47

I just made this post on one of the airport attack threads. Quoting me

"Yup. So far as I can work out, they are a fundie religious cult. But everyone seems to be saying "terrorists". And fair enough, but loads of people are lumping them in with all the other Islamic groups. To me they are more like the Taiping crowd of the mid 1800s in China. Where a fella called Hong Xiuquan claimed to be the brother of Jesus. And nobody, except his followers, agreed.
And as I said, I can't work out why nobody in "the West", is supporting the actual Yemen Government.
Maybe lessons from history? The Taiping rebellion cost an estimated 20 million dead. And here is the thing I think. A cult such as this can only be dealt with by eradication, or re-education. Both of which are abhorrent these days (correctly IMO).
So hedge the bets on Mr Bonesaw ? That he will somehow manage to deal with it without eradication or re-education camps?
I suspect that the Yemeni Government favour either or both of the bad options ?"

For context, it is here.

Page 2 | Saudi Airport - attack or terror? | Mumsnet

We do seem to have a lot of overlap.

In another post in that thread , the one I posted that got a reply I was answering to... I said this

"Quote " Bringing down the "House of Saud" is no bad thing. The US and the world should bomb the Saudi's and bring democracy there too."
I do not disagree with the first bit. I do disagree with the 2nd bit ( I am anti war). The third bit would be good.
And just to bring another factor in, and I think your post opens it up, is this -
UK military support to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
I disagree with this. Not in terms of being against the Houthi ( because nobody actually likes them, I think not even Iran), but because why support Saudi Arabia, when they should actually be supporting the Yemeni Government. This is classic mission creep, and war escalation.
This is a civil war in Yemen. The Houthi (tribe) against the Yemen Government. These folk. And the Houthi are a really odd fundie religious crowd ( Maybe cult ?)
Government (yemenembassynl.org)
This is who Saudi Arabia entered the way over a decade ago to support. Saudi Arabia are an external actor in a civil war. But for some reason, the actual Yemen Government, and it's leader, H.E. Dr. Rashad Al-Alimi, are never mentioned.
That is who the international community should be supporting against the Houthi. But for some reason, they are siding with an absolute Monarch of an authoritarian theocratic state, Mohammed bin Salman (insert emotive' "Mr Bonesaw"), rather than the recognized government of Yemen.
This H.E. Dr. Rashad Al-Alimi, the actual leader of Yemen, must be really bad that people prefer Mr Bonesaw.
Perhaps he is a socialist? No Idea."

I am cutting and pasting between threads because I think it is wrong to lump Yemen in with Trumps war.

Page 2 | Saudi Airport - attack or terror? | Mumsnet

[[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw33x4y8k82no https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw33x4y8k82]] Again I think the BBC should go for terrorist...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5587743-saudi-airport-attack-or-terror?page=2&reply=155281111

trumpredcard · 12/10/2026 08:37

Maybe I am not a great ‘4 dimensional chess’ player, but I have no idea what the Houthis expect to happen from this that could be in any way good for them.

Doesn't this depend on the aim of Houthi action and their risk vs reward assessments?

My answer to your question would start by separating their aims into internal Yemen politics and their wider ME ambitions and then look at past Houthi actions and the result of action against them.

The Houthis have described the aim of recent strikes as disrupting SA aviation. Not unexpectedly, the response has included the threat of US retaliation. This has happened in the past, yet the Houthis survived, regrouped and here we are today with them still pursuing their main aim of maintaining and expanding their control of Yemen.
I would look at short term and long(er) term results in order to determine the level of damage to Houthi aims and activities, which include hostility towards both Israeli and American influence in the region, and why this could yet yield positives for them.
I would speculate these are linked to supporting Iran atm in terms of making things 'costly' for the US and how this plays out politically for the WH Regime.

The Houthis obviously don't think that they can be obliterated even when other countries join the fight and based on the past, I think they are not wrong in this.

eta
And I didn't even look at their religious aims...

Newbutoldfather · 12/10/2026 09:10

@trumpredcard ,

All interesting arguments, but I don’t think the Houthis have ever either been as vulnerable or had as much to lose.

The U.S forces in the region are massive, the pressure on hydrocarbon prices is extreme and Turkey and Pakistan have offered support to Saudi.

Also, as you say; they are involved in a civil war, with plenty of local opposition.

We’ll see what happens, but I suspect that they have seriously miscalculated.

(like you, I am ignoring religious motivations, as that takes all logic out).