Anti Semitism to increase after the government sides with Islamists

[mids2019]

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-16115899/Miliband-accused-Jews-UK-danger-Chief-Rabbi-Tory-leader-react-Labour-sanctions-Israeli.OrlaNdo memorial

The government's decision to sanction Israel, a democratic ally in the ME, surely is a reward to all those that have spouted Jew hate on our city streets. If the government is willing to distance itself from Israel won't this be seen as further motivation for the radical Islmist left to continue their campaigns in the UK. It's a shameful moment and it will take a lot to rebuild relations with Israel.

Many people use the word zionism. Both pro and anti zionist people use it. Me stopping using the word zionism will not stop other people using the word and will not suddenly make its meaning simple and uncontroversial.

Personally I do rarely use the word as I prefer to be clearer in what I say so I agree with you to that extent.

But this particular discussion started because pp said anti-zionism is antisemitism. One can’t use a word to attack people and then demand that they don’t use the word or discuss its meaning.

It was an analogy. As I’m sure you’re aware, analogies are not saying two things are identical in all ways. They are about comparing a certain aspect of two things.

But this is the crux of the disagreement. You believe zionism is a belief. I believe zionism is frequently used to mean the actions that many (not all) of the holders of that belief carry out.

It’s not about what I personally believe zionism. It’s about what the word means and how it is used.

You can insinuate I’m a terrible person for this disagreement if you want. That’s not an argument.

Zionism is a belief. You can't just make up definitions of words and pretend it's a difference of opinion. Like I said gaslighting 101.

And the vast majority of zionists are not currently killing gazans so your "many" comment is pretty dodgy too.

And I know what an analogy is, no need to be so fucking patronising.

Antifa is not a belief it's an organisation. What you're doing is saying that environmentalism is bad, and when people question you on it you say "stop pretending that environmentalism is about protecting the environment when it actually means engaging in eco-terrorism". Except in this case there's a particular ethnic group who mostly believe on environmentalism that you're smearing.

I don’t follow your analogy. We are not talking about telling anyone to stop doing anything. We are talking about a the meaning of a specific word.

If particular ethnic group who mostly believe in environmentalism had a specific word which was used for their environmentalism beliefs which was not used in any other context, and this group were engaging in eco-terrorism, that word would soon become generally used to mean the eco-terrorist activities they carry out.

It’s a bit much to get outraged about me being patronising given the tone in which you are responding to me.

So essentially you are saying it’s “Jew hate” to be anti Zionist.

I never said I think these beliefs are the belief of all Jews. You’ve made that up.

Another example is Islamism. A dictionary definition is

Islamism is a political and religious belief that Islam should guide social, legal, and political systems.

So a belief.

Does everyone with that belief carry out Islamist terrorism? No.

Do they all support Islamist terrorism? No.

Does society generally use the word to mean the belief only, or the belief plus actions associated with up to and including Islamist terrorism? The later.

Is it islamophopic to use Islamist in this way? I don’t believe it is. Do you?

Reposting this reply as I buggered up my quoting so it’s confusing.

I don’t follow your analogy. We are not talking about telling anyone to stop doing anything. We are talking about a the meaning of a specific word.

If particular ethnic group who mostly believe in environmentalism had a specific word which was used for their environmentalism beliefs which was not used in any other context, and this group were engaging in eco-terrorism, that word would soon become generally used to mean the eco-terrorist activities they carry out.

Well that's good to see

I didn't get a chance earlier to properly respond to this, but I want to address the points raised.

What does Islam have to do with any of this, and why does religion even matter here? The UK has decided to take a stance to protect the West Bank from illegal Israeli settlers who are colonising the area. This has been an illegal annexation since 1967. Framing this as a religious issue completely distracts from the core violation of international law.

Furthermore, this is not about antisemitis, no one hates Jewish people. The issue is a deep disapproval of a racist leader who is being permitted to ethnically cleanse a minority population; a population that has every right to exist on their own land. Any group of people has a fundamental right to defend themselves when facing such an existential threat.

People also tend to forget that the UK is the one that started this mess in the first place. The British government drew arbitrary borders in the region and then bailed - the exact same thing they did in India.

The original comment calls this a "shameful moment" and claims it will take a lot to rebuild relations with Israel. But why should anyone want to maintain close relations with a state that repeatedly ignores international law? In terms of disregarding global legal standards, they are no different from the Taliban or ISIS.

The right wing use it as a slur.

Terrible example

Islamism stems from the quranic belief/teachings that everyone and every land should be ruled be Islam and Islam should be in every aspect of all peoples lives.

Totally different from the meaning of zionism which is just one aspect of Judaism and about Jewish people only.

I think you could argue the case for similarities between Islamism and Judaism as a whole but there are some fundamental big differences in world view and how Jews view free will or disagreeing views about their beliefs.

I am saying if you don't understand the meaning of a word or belief you really shouldn't be using word or talking about it. There are other wasn't to express yourself or state your case without being offensive or prejudice towards others

Burnham wants to see Polanski/Greens lose support from the Muslim block. I am not saying all Muslims vote as a block BTW, however some do.

Fair enough, I’ll take that correction and withdraw that analogy.

The flood of 'settler violence' by masked men took off after interest in the war in Gaza started to wane

There is nothing new about British governments condemning the settlements.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/28/uks-key-role-in-brokering-un-resolution-on-israeli-settlements-confirmed

You may not believe in a two state solution, but this British government is being entirely consistent with previous governments in supporting a two state solution.

Israel's actions in the middle east have global consequences, and have had huge consequences over the last year, so other countries will continue to observe their actions and react accordingly. That is how the world works.

Agreed. As a Jew I'd say the kind of people who pose a threat to us don't care what the government does about Israel one way or the other.

Also I thought it was agreed that conflating Jews and Israel was antisemitism (because it is) so why is the Chief Rabbi now conflating us with Israel?

Most Jews, even quite strongly Israel-supporting ones, decry what the settlers are doing - they are fucking things up for Israel's safety as well as harming Palestinians and I am frankly pissed off that Mirvis has made it look like we're more concerned about our own anxiety than a genuine threat to human safety.

As I posted already, Zionism (to put it simply) is a believe that state of Israel should have been created / should exist. I have no idea what you think it means but saying Israeli citizens living in Israel don't believe Israel should exist is nuts. Or you are hanging around some really odd people.

@Echobelly ,

As a secular Jew, I share a lot of your thoughts.

I think it is dangerous to conflate Jews with Israelis, although the existence of Israel does matter to most Jews, including me. However, my primary loyalty is to this country, not Israel, and I am happy to speak out and condemn their current behaviour.

I do think that we should at least threaten full sanctions on Israel unless they deal with the settlers properly and make clear that their plans for Gaza include somewhere habitable for the Palestinians.

The diaspora need to sometimes clearly speak out against Israeli actions, otherwise they become complicit. This is something people accuse Moslems of doing all the time (not condemning Islamic terrorism strongly enough). Never Again is about othering other ethnicities prior to eliminating them and Israel must not ever go down that road.

If the diaspora supports Israel unconditionally all the time, they can hardly be surprised if antisemitism rears its ugly head. That is why Mirvis (who is very connected to Israel, and hardly unbiased) is unhelpful here.

I am sure I am demonstrating huge amounts of ignorance here, but isn't it possible to believe that a country has a right to exist simply because it does exist and is recognised by other countries? If somebody believes that Israel has a right to exist in the same way that Italy has a right to exist, are you saying that they are Zionist?

Yes and, as I said, they've carried on longer than I think they should have. I feel incredibly sorry for the innocent Palestinians who never voted for Hamas and who never took part in the violence. Honestly, I feel sorry for majority of them, who voted for Hamas and sympathised with the violence too - it would be hard not to feel sad for people who are suffering, no matter what they've done in the past.

Nevertheless, there's a significant moral difference between the military response from Israel and the terrorism from Hamas. Hamas has bombed Israel most days for years. Palestine refused any settlement (wasn't it Arafat who said it wasn't enough to have all the territory they were fighting for - they wanted nothing short of Israel wiped off the map). I think there comes a time when responding to repeated attacks by attacking your attacker becomes self-defence. They're only going to be safe if Hamas is destroyed. I don't agree with the degree of the response but it isn't without some justification - I see it much like a woman who eventually snaps and murders her abusive partner, or who incapacitates her rapist but then carries on injuring them until they're pretty much dead. Neither response is truly proportional or morally right, but they're understandable.

But there's a much bigger difference - the difference of the nature of the violence. Israel gave warnings, allowed in food and medicine, targeted buildings and places where they had reason to believe Hamas was hiding out, and kept prisoners in humane conditions. Too many innocent people have been killed or maimed by the bombs - some of them were deliberately put in harm's way by Hamas; others were not. Some prisoners have been terribly treated over the years, but it hasn't been a policy or even systematic.

Hamas revelled in violence, rape, and torture. They systematically targeted civilians rather than soldiers or politicians, and they systematically targeted families, the elderly, children and babies. They mocked, raped, tortured, maimed, killed their victims and repeatedly captured it on film, boasting about it and further increasing their families' pain. And it's significant that none of the Muslim countries in the area welcome in Gazan refugees. They may be Israel's enemies, but they don't want such sadistically violent men in their countries.

I can't imagine the pain of having my child blown up by a foreign army and my home destroyed. But I'd rather my child be killed in a bomb, than that they be gang-raped, tortured and brutalized before being murdered.

Just to clear, do you think that the 80% of Jewish people who describe themselves as zionists are wrong about what zionism is? Or are you saing that they are all carrying out acts of violence?

And I'm not sure what you mean by no other context.

@HowDoYouSolveAProblemLikeMyRear ,

I agree that Israel are morally superior to Hamas, but that is not a high bar!

All the members of Hamas who took part in or helped organised 7/10 should be wiped out. Ditto any who were involved with the hostages. This wasn’t fighting, it was systematic brutality against civilians.

‘But there's a much bigger difference - the difference of the nature of the violence. Israel gave warnings, allowed in food and medicine, targeted buildings and places where they had reason to believe Hamas was hiding out, and kept prisoners in humane conditions. Too many innocent people have been killed or maimed by the bombs - some of them were deliberately put in harm's way by Hamas; others were not. Some prisoners have been terribly treated over the years, but it hasn't been a policy or even systematic.’

I do take issue with some of this though.

Israel did give warnings, that’s true but kept moving people at impossibly fast speed into smaller and smaller areas.

They really didn’t allow in much food or medicine. Initially they were going to besiege Gaza and allow nothing in at all until all the hostages were handed back. You can hear Netanyahu saying that. It was only when Biden told them it was a war crime and withheld weapons that they changed that policy. Even so, they didn’t let nearly enough food in. Hamas had stockpiled plenty in advance, and so it was the civilians who suffered. Gaza was declared to be in near starvation and I have no reason to doubt the truth of that.

And they really didn’t keep prisoners in humane conditions. They tortured unconvicted Palestinians. The treatment of Palestinian prisoners wasn’t a ‘few bad apples’ , it was a systemic policy.

I think a lot of people want to gloss over the starvation (or near starvation), using food as a weapon and mistreatment of prisoners. However, the evidence from most reliable sources is pretty convincing.

Obviously Israel deny it and put out a competing narrative, and it is impossible to be sure. But, you have to ask yourself that if it were all slander, wouldn’t Israel have invited journalists in and told them they were free to ask whatever they wanted (obviously not war plans etc).

If they believe Israel has the right to exist and that Jews should be able to live freely as Jews without prejudice then yes they are a zionist

The faces when you point this out to some people claiming to be antizionits is rather special

The whole antizionism thing is actually rather laughable in some cases. People claiming to not want the destruction of Israel bit peace for both sides. Saying they believe Jews are equal to everyone else. Then they start talking about evil zionists. Of course some antizionits want exactly what it say on the label

But people who believe Italy has a right to exist aren't described as anything. It's just assumed that Italy has a right to exist because of international law.

Is it not possible to believe that Israel has a right to exist in the same way that any other country has a right to exist?