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Conflict in the Middle East

Is the penny finally starting to drop about anti semitism and hate marches?

734 replies

mids2019 · 05/05/2026 06:30

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/04/starmer-c al l-society-response-rising-antisemitism

I think we are now seeing the cumulative impact of the anti senitism that has built up over the last 3 years where there has been a permissive environment with politicians hesitant to intervene in events in the streets that have incubated anti Jew sentiment.

All political parties apart from the hate apologist Greens are now waking up to the fact we need better policing and perhaps legislation. I for one will acting a vote for a party that recognises hate marches for what they are and also willing to tackle the vile posts appearing on social media (and Labour have reacted too late too little). Enough is enough for a Jewish community that lives in perpetual fear.

‘A test of our values’: Starmer to call for whole-society response to rising antisemitism

PM will say responsibility to stand with Jewish communities lies with ‘every one of us’ at event on Tuesday

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/04/starmer-call-society-response-rising-antisemitism

OP posts:
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Islandsofsand · 23/05/2026 09:18

In the Australian state where’s it been banned-

How will the ban work?
Those using the slogans in Facebook posts, chants, banners and online publishing potentially face two years’ imprisonment, given the laws ban the “public distribution, publication, public display or public recitation” of the two phrases.
But not just any use of the phrases would be illegal. The ban applies to using them in a way that menaces, harasses or offends – to a real or hypothetical member of the public. Which could prove to be a high bar.

Anne Twomey, a professor of constitutional law, said there was a key question a court would have to determine. “In the context of a peaceful public rally, the question would be whether the chanting or display of the expression ‘might reasonably be expected’ to have that effect upon ‘a member of the public’,” she said.That

“Yes, a court would likely read the term ‘offence’ at a high level of harm.

“But given the visceral objection to these expressions shown by some groups in the community, a court might well make such a finding, depending on the circumstances.”

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2026/mar/05/queensland-pro-palestinian-phrase-ban-river-to-sea-laws-ntwnfb

I think that’s fair enough

‘From the river to the sea’ is being outlawed in Queensland. How will the slogan’s ban work, and will it be challenged?

The LNP government passed legislation to deem the chant a ‘proscribed phrase’ – along with ‘globalise the intifada’. Here’s what to know about the laws

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2026/mar/05/queensland-pro-palestinian-phrase-ban-river-to-sea-laws-ntwnfb

noblegiraffe · 23/05/2026 09:45

Islandsofsand · 23/05/2026 09:00

We are having a discussion about respecting and not dismissing other people’s views?

The first paragraph - do you not understand this:

If it’s still about the ‘Jewish lobby’ - you didn’t want to look at the concerns I raised about AIPAC’s impact on U.S. politics but you were understandably concerned about it ruling the world as being antisemitic.

The last paragraph:

Imagine if Starmer had said, the river and sea is antisemitic and shouldn’t be used even when people are concerned about what is happening in the Middle East.

If it could be acknowledged why some people used the phrase river to sea (there can be other reasons as well as antisemitism) - people may be more likely to respect or at least listen to concerns about why it should not be used.

Edited

I still don't get what you're trying to say about AIPAC. It's like you're trying to say that having legitimate concerns about the influence of AIPAC on US politics means you can say antisemitic stuff about Jews. It's a progression, sure, just like 'I have concerns about what's going on in Gaza' can lead to antisemitic remarks about Zionists being baby killers, but knowing that there's a progression and legitimising that progression are two different things.

If it could be acknowledged why some people used the phrase river to sea (there can be other reasons as well as antisemitism) - people may be more likely to respect or at least listen to concerns about why it should not be used.

I watched a video a couple of years ago (and I've not been able to find it again since which is really annoying) of Noam Chomsky talking to a crowd of university students, explaining why from the river to the sea shouldn't be used, and do you know what the crowd immediately did? They started a chant of from the river to the sea while he was still at the podium.

Some people actually just don't give a shit about antisemitism and funnily enough it tends to be exactly the sort of crowd who intensely police language in other areas, so it's not a free speech thing.

Islandsofsand · 23/05/2026 10:56

noblegiraffe · 23/05/2026 09:45

I still don't get what you're trying to say about AIPAC. It's like you're trying to say that having legitimate concerns about the influence of AIPAC on US politics means you can say antisemitic stuff about Jews. It's a progression, sure, just like 'I have concerns about what's going on in Gaza' can lead to antisemitic remarks about Zionists being baby killers, but knowing that there's a progression and legitimising that progression are two different things.

If it could be acknowledged why some people used the phrase river to sea (there can be other reasons as well as antisemitism) - people may be more likely to respect or at least listen to concerns about why it should not be used.

I watched a video a couple of years ago (and I've not been able to find it again since which is really annoying) of Noam Chomsky talking to a crowd of university students, explaining why from the river to the sea shouldn't be used, and do you know what the crowd immediately did? They started a chant of from the river to the sea while he was still at the podium.

Some people actually just don't give a shit about antisemitism and funnily enough it tends to be exactly the sort of crowd who intensely police language in other areas, so it's not a free speech thing.

“I still don't get what you're trying to say about AIPAC. It's like you're trying to say that having legitimate concerns about the influence of AIPAC on US politics means you can say antisemitic stuff about Jews. It's a progression, sure, just like 'I have concerns about what's going on in Gaza' can lead to antisemitic remarks about Zionists being baby killers, but knowing that there's a progression and legitimising that progression are two different things.”

No - I am not saying that. I am saying you would be more likely persuade people about not using Jewish tropes about the “Jewish lobby” not controlling everything by acknowledging that people have legitimate reasons to concerns about some Jewish / Israeli associated lobby groups.

If you think that leads to a progression to antisemitism- how are going to tackle the resulting antisemitic thinking without understanding all its drivers?

Of course, continue to point out the more clearly antisemitic trope too.

rainingsnoring · 23/05/2026 12:07

noblegiraffe · 23/05/2026 07:51

And you don't seem to understand that there isn't any 'context' whereby it would be acceptable for you to say the "Jewish Lobby" are wielding undue influence over various countries's governments.

You can keep arguing that it's not antisemitism when you say it and I will continue to wonder why you are so keen to use the language of antisemites,

That's simply your opinion Noble, not fact.

What would you suggest is a better way to describe the fact that extremely wealthy Jewish donors, many of who seem to have Israeli citizenship as well as US, have such a massive influence on US politics? These people are often representing interests which are completely at odds with US interests and those of its population. Look at what happened to Massie recently. Look at the massive donations to political campaigns, including, of course, the current president. Look at how Marco Rubio is on record saying that the reason the US started the Iran war was because of Israel. US citizens are starting to understand this and are not happy.
You can keep calling people anti semites but are ignoring some really important and relevant issues.

rainingsnoring · 23/05/2026 12:43

'Some people actually just don't give a shit about antisemitism and funnily enough it tends to be exactly the sort of crowd who intensely police language in other areas, so it's not a free speech thing.'
Really? How do you square that with what is happening in Australia and Germany where a certain phrase has been banned and where people are being arrested for using it?

Stirabout · 23/05/2026 12:51

Islandsofsand · 23/05/2026 10:56

“I still don't get what you're trying to say about AIPAC. It's like you're trying to say that having legitimate concerns about the influence of AIPAC on US politics means you can say antisemitic stuff about Jews. It's a progression, sure, just like 'I have concerns about what's going on in Gaza' can lead to antisemitic remarks about Zionists being baby killers, but knowing that there's a progression and legitimising that progression are two different things.”

No - I am not saying that. I am saying you would be more likely persuade people about not using Jewish tropes about the “Jewish lobby” not controlling everything by acknowledging that people have legitimate reasons to concerns about some Jewish / Israeli associated lobby groups.

If you think that leads to a progression to antisemitism- how are going to tackle the resulting antisemitic thinking without understanding all its drivers?

Of course, continue to point out the more clearly antisemitic trope too.

Your point reminds me of an article on Empathetic Understanding

Lets switch out the word Politics for Conflict in the Middle East in this piece

‘ Empathetic Understanding in Politics
25 February 2019
Michael Hannon
deliberation
empathy
politics

What is the goal of political conversation? Why should we deliberate with others about politics?

Democratic deliberation is said to benefit people in many ways. For example, it has been touted as a way to produce civic engagement, increase faith in democratic institutions, encourage a willingness to compromise, and make people better citizens overall.
According to John Stuart Mill, deliberating in public about politics is also good for a democracy because it affords citizens “the opportunity of exchanging error for truth” (1859: 21).

For Mill, deliberation is a vital mechanism through which individuals improve and develop their political ideas, without which their “mental development is cramped” (ibid: 39).

Many political theorists agree; they believe that deliberation is an essential way to make people more informed, more rational, and alter their preferences in truth-conducive ways.

Yet real life political debates in liberal democracies are often mired in controversy and grounded in non-rational considerations. The evidential basis for policies is frequently thin, expert opinions are often ignored, and policies can be downright irrational. In addition, a lot of empirical work indicates that people become epistemically worse when they deliberate about political issues.

When we talk about politics, we are especially prone to exhibit a host of biases and imperfections like motivated reasoning, selective recall, and identity protection.

There is also a sizeable literature, nicely reviewed by Cass Sunstein, indicating that group deliberation leads to polarization. When the typical citizen enters the political field, it seems their mental performance significantly drops. All this goes against Mill’s optimistic claim that getting us involved in politics would make us smarter and nobler.

In light of this, a rather obvious question is: should we deliberate with others about politics? I want to suggest that an important goal of democratic deliberation ought to be the empathetic understanding of others.

The role of empathy is largely neglected in studies of deliberation. But in today’s political climate, empathetic understanding is perhaps more vital than ever.

We often hear people say things like “I can’t understand why anyone would even think about voting for Brexit” or “I don’t understand ‘Black Lives Matter’. Don’t all lives matter?” Citizens are increasingly polarized and political opponents hold highly unfavorable views of each other; indeed, they often regard each other as immoral, stupid, lazy, and even threats to each other’s way of life.

We characterise others simplistically, without any appreciation for the nuance or depth of their views, and others do the same to us.

A consequence is that we are unable to cooperate and work towards common goals. It is for this reason that mutual understanding is deeply important. Too often political opponents do not even try to understand each other, instead opting for cynicism and contempt. But this lack of understanding makes it difficult for us to pursue collective goods.

We cannot accomplish anything if we despise each other, refuse to listen, are too overconfident, and lose our willingness to reach a compromise. We must change our basic attitudes towards each other in order to find the common ground on which collective flourishing depends.

To understand others, we need to empathize with their thinking. This requires, for a start, that we be willing to listen to each other. More than this, however, it requires the ability to “take up” another person’s perspective—to see the world from his or her point of view.

For example, we might wonder why Harris voted for Trump. To understand why he voted for Trump, we need to identify what Harris took to be desirable or choiceworthy about his goal. In addition, empathetic understanding requires the ability to recognize Harris’s goal as a good (from his point of view).

Failing that, his actions may be unintelligible to us. As Atticus Finch says in To Kill a Mockingbird, “You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view . . . until you climb into his skin and walk around in it”.

The classical Aristotelian definition of deliberation is: “an exchange of arguments for or against something” (Aristotle, Rhetoric, I, 2). It involves weighing the available data, arguing about relevance and worthiness, and then choosing the best policy or person.

But too much focus on rational argument may actually prevent us from achieving a deep understanding of each other. When political discourse aims to persuade others, we often become further entrenched in our views and are epistemically worse off as a result.

If we start by trying to understand each other, rather than to convince one another, then we are more likely to appreciate various conceptions of the good life.
As Catherine Elgin nicely puts it, “Rather than seeing those who disagree with us as opponents, we should see them as potential allies who, by envisioning things differently, extend our epistemic range”.

This is not to say that empathetic understanding requires us to change our opinions or to stop disagreeing with those we seek to understand. We might continue to disagree, but at least we would understand each other better; and this may help us work together. In contrast, misunderstanding can lead to cynicism and contempt for others, which is part of what causes polarization. We must overcome our feelings of moral condemnation and moral superiority—to understand others rather than just deplore them. The democratic attitude requires this imaginative capacity.’

Islandsofsand · 23/05/2026 13:29

Stirabout · 23/05/2026 12:51

Your point reminds me of an article on Empathetic Understanding

Lets switch out the word Politics for Conflict in the Middle East in this piece

‘ Empathetic Understanding in Politics
25 February 2019
Michael Hannon
deliberation
empathy
politics

What is the goal of political conversation? Why should we deliberate with others about politics?

Democratic deliberation is said to benefit people in many ways. For example, it has been touted as a way to produce civic engagement, increase faith in democratic institutions, encourage a willingness to compromise, and make people better citizens overall.
According to John Stuart Mill, deliberating in public about politics is also good for a democracy because it affords citizens “the opportunity of exchanging error for truth” (1859: 21).

For Mill, deliberation is a vital mechanism through which individuals improve and develop their political ideas, without which their “mental development is cramped” (ibid: 39).

Many political theorists agree; they believe that deliberation is an essential way to make people more informed, more rational, and alter their preferences in truth-conducive ways.

Yet real life political debates in liberal democracies are often mired in controversy and grounded in non-rational considerations. The evidential basis for policies is frequently thin, expert opinions are often ignored, and policies can be downright irrational. In addition, a lot of empirical work indicates that people become epistemically worse when they deliberate about political issues.

When we talk about politics, we are especially prone to exhibit a host of biases and imperfections like motivated reasoning, selective recall, and identity protection.

There is also a sizeable literature, nicely reviewed by Cass Sunstein, indicating that group deliberation leads to polarization. When the typical citizen enters the political field, it seems their mental performance significantly drops. All this goes against Mill’s optimistic claim that getting us involved in politics would make us smarter and nobler.

In light of this, a rather obvious question is: should we deliberate with others about politics? I want to suggest that an important goal of democratic deliberation ought to be the empathetic understanding of others.

The role of empathy is largely neglected in studies of deliberation. But in today’s political climate, empathetic understanding is perhaps more vital than ever.

We often hear people say things like “I can’t understand why anyone would even think about voting for Brexit” or “I don’t understand ‘Black Lives Matter’. Don’t all lives matter?” Citizens are increasingly polarized and political opponents hold highly unfavorable views of each other; indeed, they often regard each other as immoral, stupid, lazy, and even threats to each other’s way of life.

We characterise others simplistically, without any appreciation for the nuance or depth of their views, and others do the same to us.

A consequence is that we are unable to cooperate and work towards common goals. It is for this reason that mutual understanding is deeply important. Too often political opponents do not even try to understand each other, instead opting for cynicism and contempt. But this lack of understanding makes it difficult for us to pursue collective goods.

We cannot accomplish anything if we despise each other, refuse to listen, are too overconfident, and lose our willingness to reach a compromise. We must change our basic attitudes towards each other in order to find the common ground on which collective flourishing depends.

To understand others, we need to empathize with their thinking. This requires, for a start, that we be willing to listen to each other. More than this, however, it requires the ability to “take up” another person’s perspective—to see the world from his or her point of view.

For example, we might wonder why Harris voted for Trump. To understand why he voted for Trump, we need to identify what Harris took to be desirable or choiceworthy about his goal. In addition, empathetic understanding requires the ability to recognize Harris’s goal as a good (from his point of view).

Failing that, his actions may be unintelligible to us. As Atticus Finch says in To Kill a Mockingbird, “You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view . . . until you climb into his skin and walk around in it”.

The classical Aristotelian definition of deliberation is: “an exchange of arguments for or against something” (Aristotle, Rhetoric, I, 2). It involves weighing the available data, arguing about relevance and worthiness, and then choosing the best policy or person.

But too much focus on rational argument may actually prevent us from achieving a deep understanding of each other. When political discourse aims to persuade others, we often become further entrenched in our views and are epistemically worse off as a result.

If we start by trying to understand each other, rather than to convince one another, then we are more likely to appreciate various conceptions of the good life.
As Catherine Elgin nicely puts it, “Rather than seeing those who disagree with us as opponents, we should see them as potential allies who, by envisioning things differently, extend our epistemic range”.

This is not to say that empathetic understanding requires us to change our opinions or to stop disagreeing with those we seek to understand. We might continue to disagree, but at least we would understand each other better; and this may help us work together. In contrast, misunderstanding can lead to cynicism and contempt for others, which is part of what causes polarization. We must overcome our feelings of moral condemnation and moral superiority—to understand others rather than just deplore them. The democratic attitude requires this imaginative capacity.’

Thank you- really interesting!

So we can’t shift in our disagreements but the best we may hope for is some degree of empathy for the views of others?

Stirabout · 23/05/2026 13:41

Islandsofsand · 23/05/2026 13:29

Thank you- really interesting!

So we can’t shift in our disagreements but the best we may hope for is some degree of empathy for the views of others?

Exactly

If people refuse to understand, others will push back
look at the proscription of Palestine Action. More came out to demonstrate
Look at what’s going on in Australia with the flash mobs. More come out

If You denigrate the opinions of others through a lack of understanding they will push back with more force and often in greater numbers.

‘you’ not in the you personally obviously Island 🙏

noblegiraffe · 23/05/2026 14:20

rainingsnoring · 23/05/2026 12:07

That's simply your opinion Noble, not fact.

What would you suggest is a better way to describe the fact that extremely wealthy Jewish donors, many of who seem to have Israeli citizenship as well as US, have such a massive influence on US politics? These people are often representing interests which are completely at odds with US interests and those of its population. Look at what happened to Massie recently. Look at the massive donations to political campaigns, including, of course, the current president. Look at how Marco Rubio is on record saying that the reason the US started the Iran war was because of Israel. US citizens are starting to understand this and are not happy.
You can keep calling people anti semites but are ignoring some really important and relevant issues.

Why not call them extremely wealthy pro-Israel donors? Why make a thing about them being Jewish at all? Why call them the 'Jewish Lobby' when, as we know, there are many Jews who are not pro-Israel and who would not consider those people as representing their interests?

I'm not ignoring important issues, I'm wondering why it is so important to you to call them the Jewish Lobby when that is clearly used by antisemites? When those Neo Nazis were holding the 'Abolish the Jewish Lobby" sign, do you think they were merely trying to highlight some really important and relevant issues?

Antisemites deliberately identify when people are Jewish. Do you remember the thing about putting brackets around Jewish people's names to 'out' them so that people knew what you were really on about? I've googled Miriam Adelson and she was born in and lived at lot of her life in Israel. She's Israeli-American. But the most important thing is that people know that she's Jewish because that explains why she's pro-Israel? Or is it just really important that people know that she's Jewish so that people can associate it with the obvious Jewish plot for world domination?

noblegiraffe · 23/05/2026 14:21

Islandsofsand · 23/05/2026 13:29

Thank you- really interesting!

So we can’t shift in our disagreements but the best we may hope for is some degree of empathy for the views of others?

I don't know what Katie wrote previously, but there didn't seem to be much empathy or understanding for whatever racism that post contained.

Double standards?

noblegiraffe · 23/05/2026 14:25

Islandsofsand · 23/05/2026 10:56

“I still don't get what you're trying to say about AIPAC. It's like you're trying to say that having legitimate concerns about the influence of AIPAC on US politics means you can say antisemitic stuff about Jews. It's a progression, sure, just like 'I have concerns about what's going on in Gaza' can lead to antisemitic remarks about Zionists being baby killers, but knowing that there's a progression and legitimising that progression are two different things.”

No - I am not saying that. I am saying you would be more likely persuade people about not using Jewish tropes about the “Jewish lobby” not controlling everything by acknowledging that people have legitimate reasons to concerns about some Jewish / Israeli associated lobby groups.

If you think that leads to a progression to antisemitism- how are going to tackle the resulting antisemitic thinking without understanding all its drivers?

Of course, continue to point out the more clearly antisemitic trope too.

You're making the mistake that Noam Chomsky made of thinking that the reason people use these antisemitic tropes is because they don't know or understand and if they only knew and understood they wouldn't use them.

As he found, and has been demonstrated time and again, people will know that these things are dodgy, and say them anyway. Do you genuinely think that there are people today chanting 'from the river to the sea' who don't know that there are valid objections to it?

And look at the continued assertion that 'Jewish Lobby' is fine despite all the evidence provided that it's not.

Stirabout · 23/05/2026 14:35

noblegiraffe · 23/05/2026 14:21

I don't know what Katie wrote previously, but there didn't seem to be much empathy or understanding for whatever racism that post contained.

Double standards?

Direct personal attacks and sweeping derogatory statements is no way to encourage others to respect and understand anothers views

It acts as a catalyst. People push back, they become more forthright and grow in numbers.
People rarely stand down. Although it’s safe to say there is an element who do so, of course. We are not all the same

noblegiraffe · 23/05/2026 14:46

Stirabout · 23/05/2026 14:35

Direct personal attacks and sweeping derogatory statements is no way to encourage others to respect and understand anothers views

It acts as a catalyst. People push back, they become more forthright and grow in numbers.
People rarely stand down. Although it’s safe to say there is an element who do so, of course. We are not all the same

Edited

It seems like you're suggesting that people would stop saying antisemitic stuff if people asked them nicely enough, but if you don't ask them nicely enough, you can't expect them to stop saying antisemitic stuff.

People will always shoot the messenger when they hear something they don't like, and people should stop saying antisemitic stuff when they find out it's antisemitic.

I'm certainly not going to accept that I'm the bad guy for pointing out antisemitism because the way I pointed it out wasn't to the affected people's tastes. I didn't see any 'good guys' pointing it out either, and I'm not sure why some types of racism need people pussy-footing around instead of robust challenge.

Stirabout · 23/05/2026 15:33

noblegiraffe · 23/05/2026 14:46

It seems like you're suggesting that people would stop saying antisemitic stuff if people asked them nicely enough, but if you don't ask them nicely enough, you can't expect them to stop saying antisemitic stuff.

People will always shoot the messenger when they hear something they don't like, and people should stop saying antisemitic stuff when they find out it's antisemitic.

I'm certainly not going to accept that I'm the bad guy for pointing out antisemitism because the way I pointed it out wasn't to the affected people's tastes. I didn't see any 'good guys' pointing it out either, and I'm not sure why some types of racism need people pussy-footing around instead of robust challenge.

Para 1/
No I’m not saying this, that would be assuming everyone is the same
We are not.
Plus I didn’t saying anything about asking nicely. I read that paragraph as minimising the point.

Para 2/
on ‘shoot the messenger’.
Less would do so imo if people tried to understand others. In which case No…people will ‘not always’ shoot the messenger. There’s no gain in doing that and only loss
( see previous posts )

Para 3/
My posts have absolutely Nothing to do with you pointing out anti semitism. I haven’t been discussing that.

noblegiraffe · 23/05/2026 16:05

Stirabout · 23/05/2026 15:33

Para 1/
No I’m not saying this, that would be assuming everyone is the same
We are not.
Plus I didn’t saying anything about asking nicely. I read that paragraph as minimising the point.

Para 2/
on ‘shoot the messenger’.
Less would do so imo if people tried to understand others. In which case No…people will ‘not always’ shoot the messenger. There’s no gain in doing that and only loss
( see previous posts )

Para 3/
My posts have absolutely Nothing to do with you pointing out anti semitism. I haven’t been discussing that.

Oh are you just having a go at me then?

I don't care.

Stirabout · 23/05/2026 16:56

noblegiraffe · 23/05/2026 16:05

Oh are you just having a go at me then?

I don't care.

Honestly noble
My posts have nothing to do with you. I have no idea why you would get that impression

go back to my post at 12:51 today ( see image ) that tagged Islands

It’s got Nothing to do with you because It’s a whole world idea.

Is the penny finally starting to drop about anti semitism and hate marches?
noblegiraffe · 23/05/2026 17:10

My posts have nothing to do with you. I have no idea why you would get that impression

Stop quoting me and replying to me then @Stirabout . Thanks.

Stirabout · 23/05/2026 17:29

noblegiraffe · 23/05/2026 17:10

My posts have nothing to do with you. I have no idea why you would get that impression

Stop quoting me and replying to me then @Stirabout . Thanks.

You started this particular discussion noblegiraffe by tagging islands post

Its polite to respond to questions and suggestions 🤷‍♀️

Again noble just because we are discussing something doesn’t mean it’s about you personally.

enjoy your evening

noblegiraffe · 23/05/2026 17:34

Stirabout · 23/05/2026 17:29

You started this particular discussion noblegiraffe by tagging islands post

Its polite to respond to questions and suggestions 🤷‍♀️

Again noble just because we are discussing something doesn’t mean it’s about you personally.

enjoy your evening

I was having a conversation with Island about my posts so when you replied to my post to island which was part of my conversation it was not unreasonable to assume that you were joining in my conversation, which was about me and my posts.

So just stay out of my conversations in future and we should be good.

rainingsnoring · Yesterday 01:27

Stirabout · 23/05/2026 12:51

Your point reminds me of an article on Empathetic Understanding

Lets switch out the word Politics for Conflict in the Middle East in this piece

‘ Empathetic Understanding in Politics
25 February 2019
Michael Hannon
deliberation
empathy
politics

What is the goal of political conversation? Why should we deliberate with others about politics?

Democratic deliberation is said to benefit people in many ways. For example, it has been touted as a way to produce civic engagement, increase faith in democratic institutions, encourage a willingness to compromise, and make people better citizens overall.
According to John Stuart Mill, deliberating in public about politics is also good for a democracy because it affords citizens “the opportunity of exchanging error for truth” (1859: 21).

For Mill, deliberation is a vital mechanism through which individuals improve and develop their political ideas, without which their “mental development is cramped” (ibid: 39).

Many political theorists agree; they believe that deliberation is an essential way to make people more informed, more rational, and alter their preferences in truth-conducive ways.

Yet real life political debates in liberal democracies are often mired in controversy and grounded in non-rational considerations. The evidential basis for policies is frequently thin, expert opinions are often ignored, and policies can be downright irrational. In addition, a lot of empirical work indicates that people become epistemically worse when they deliberate about political issues.

When we talk about politics, we are especially prone to exhibit a host of biases and imperfections like motivated reasoning, selective recall, and identity protection.

There is also a sizeable literature, nicely reviewed by Cass Sunstein, indicating that group deliberation leads to polarization. When the typical citizen enters the political field, it seems their mental performance significantly drops. All this goes against Mill’s optimistic claim that getting us involved in politics would make us smarter and nobler.

In light of this, a rather obvious question is: should we deliberate with others about politics? I want to suggest that an important goal of democratic deliberation ought to be the empathetic understanding of others.

The role of empathy is largely neglected in studies of deliberation. But in today’s political climate, empathetic understanding is perhaps more vital than ever.

We often hear people say things like “I can’t understand why anyone would even think about voting for Brexit” or “I don’t understand ‘Black Lives Matter’. Don’t all lives matter?” Citizens are increasingly polarized and political opponents hold highly unfavorable views of each other; indeed, they often regard each other as immoral, stupid, lazy, and even threats to each other’s way of life.

We characterise others simplistically, without any appreciation for the nuance or depth of their views, and others do the same to us.

A consequence is that we are unable to cooperate and work towards common goals. It is for this reason that mutual understanding is deeply important. Too often political opponents do not even try to understand each other, instead opting for cynicism and contempt. But this lack of understanding makes it difficult for us to pursue collective goods.

We cannot accomplish anything if we despise each other, refuse to listen, are too overconfident, and lose our willingness to reach a compromise. We must change our basic attitudes towards each other in order to find the common ground on which collective flourishing depends.

To understand others, we need to empathize with their thinking. This requires, for a start, that we be willing to listen to each other. More than this, however, it requires the ability to “take up” another person’s perspective—to see the world from his or her point of view.

For example, we might wonder why Harris voted for Trump. To understand why he voted for Trump, we need to identify what Harris took to be desirable or choiceworthy about his goal. In addition, empathetic understanding requires the ability to recognize Harris’s goal as a good (from his point of view).

Failing that, his actions may be unintelligible to us. As Atticus Finch says in To Kill a Mockingbird, “You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view . . . until you climb into his skin and walk around in it”.

The classical Aristotelian definition of deliberation is: “an exchange of arguments for or against something” (Aristotle, Rhetoric, I, 2). It involves weighing the available data, arguing about relevance and worthiness, and then choosing the best policy or person.

But too much focus on rational argument may actually prevent us from achieving a deep understanding of each other. When political discourse aims to persuade others, we often become further entrenched in our views and are epistemically worse off as a result.

If we start by trying to understand each other, rather than to convince one another, then we are more likely to appreciate various conceptions of the good life.
As Catherine Elgin nicely puts it, “Rather than seeing those who disagree with us as opponents, we should see them as potential allies who, by envisioning things differently, extend our epistemic range”.

This is not to say that empathetic understanding requires us to change our opinions or to stop disagreeing with those we seek to understand. We might continue to disagree, but at least we would understand each other better; and this may help us work together. In contrast, misunderstanding can lead to cynicism and contempt for others, which is part of what causes polarization. We must overcome our feelings of moral condemnation and moral superiority—to understand others rather than just deplore them. The democratic attitude requires this imaginative capacity.’

This is such an excellent post @Stirabout. Thank you! It really is one that we should all read and learn from.
I haven't heard of Cass Sunstein or Catherine Elgin. She, in particular, sounds very interesting. I've said before on this section that I would like to study Philosophy in the future, when time allows (it definitiely does not at present!). The philosopher (actually an incredible polymath) that I have listened to the most is Iain McGilchrist. His work is fascinating and I find him to be a v inspiring person.
Alastair Crook, another incredibly knowledgable and experienced person, who has been mentioned on this forum before has said something similar. He said that the major sticking point in terms of negotiations between the US and its enemies is that those charged with the job have no knowledge of the other side, no knowledge of history and completely fail to see things from their persepective. Until this changes considerably, the chance of successful negotiations leading to a permanent end to hostilities is probably very low.

rainingsnoring · Yesterday 01:34

Islandsofsand · 23/05/2026 13:29

Thank you- really interesting!

So we can’t shift in our disagreements but the best we may hope for is some degree of empathy for the views of others?

I would interpret it slightly differently.
If we can increase our empathy for 'the other side', we are far more likely to find some common, middle ground and to be able to reach important agreeements, which could prevent untold suffering.
I have been able to do this when discussing things with close friends because I love and respect them and visa versa but I struggle when it comes to very black and white statements such as you find online.

rainingsnoring · Yesterday 01:41

noblegiraffe · 23/05/2026 14:46

It seems like you're suggesting that people would stop saying antisemitic stuff if people asked them nicely enough, but if you don't ask them nicely enough, you can't expect them to stop saying antisemitic stuff.

People will always shoot the messenger when they hear something they don't like, and people should stop saying antisemitic stuff when they find out it's antisemitic.

I'm certainly not going to accept that I'm the bad guy for pointing out antisemitism because the way I pointed it out wasn't to the affected people's tastes. I didn't see any 'good guys' pointing it out either, and I'm not sure why some types of racism need people pussy-footing around instead of robust challenge.

No, that's not what she (or he) is saying at all!

The very long post that @Stirabout is very worth reading. It applies to all of us and was clearly a general comment, rather than something directed at you.

rainingsnoring · Yesterday 01:49

noblegiraffe · 23/05/2026 14:20

Why not call them extremely wealthy pro-Israel donors? Why make a thing about them being Jewish at all? Why call them the 'Jewish Lobby' when, as we know, there are many Jews who are not pro-Israel and who would not consider those people as representing their interests?

I'm not ignoring important issues, I'm wondering why it is so important to you to call them the Jewish Lobby when that is clearly used by antisemites? When those Neo Nazis were holding the 'Abolish the Jewish Lobby" sign, do you think they were merely trying to highlight some really important and relevant issues?

Antisemites deliberately identify when people are Jewish. Do you remember the thing about putting brackets around Jewish people's names to 'out' them so that people knew what you were really on about? I've googled Miriam Adelson and she was born in and lived at lot of her life in Israel. She's Israeli-American. But the most important thing is that people know that she's Jewish because that explains why she's pro-Israel? Or is it just really important that people know that she's Jewish so that people can associate it with the obvious Jewish plot for world domination?

It isn't important to me to use that particular phrase. It is widely used and understood so I used it as a short hand to reference a concern, quite a few posts back now. I won't use that particular phrase on here again because you clearly find it offensive.
I don't think that jumping in with accusations of 'anti semite' are at all helpful though nor conclusions about Jews wanting to dominate the entire world.
None of this is at all helpful in reducing attacks on entirely innocent Jews, Muslims, Sikhs or people of any religion going about everyday life in communities across the world.

Stirabout · Yesterday 01:51

rainingsnoring · Yesterday 01:27

This is such an excellent post @Stirabout. Thank you! It really is one that we should all read and learn from.
I haven't heard of Cass Sunstein or Catherine Elgin. She, in particular, sounds very interesting. I've said before on this section that I would like to study Philosophy in the future, when time allows (it definitiely does not at present!). The philosopher (actually an incredible polymath) that I have listened to the most is Iain McGilchrist. His work is fascinating and I find him to be a v inspiring person.
Alastair Crook, another incredibly knowledgable and experienced person, who has been mentioned on this forum before has said something similar. He said that the major sticking point in terms of negotiations between the US and its enemies is that those charged with the job have no knowledge of the other side, no knowledge of history and completely fail to see things from their persepective. Until this changes considerably, the chance of successful negotiations leading to a permanent end to hostilities is probably very low.

Thanks

We recently bought ‘The matter with things’ for our son who’s studying neuroscience.
How interesting you’ve mentioned him here

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