IDF confirms authenticity of a photo of a soldier destroying a statute of Jesus Christ

[childlessbutconcerned]

https://x.com/idf/status/2045973415643767091?s=46

Disgraceful.

I agree about his motives being suspect.

So you won't answer. I had a similar discussion/ debate with a Cristian on the same passage a few months ago. Different subject though. But same as here, the Christian would not answer.

I'll answer (hello RedTagAlan!) - I am sure that some Christians will have the unfortunate view they 'need' to be persecuted in order to be blessed. This is a problem with them and their understanding of Scripture. It's an unhealthy view. Yes Jesus said, "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake", but nowhere does he suggest we should go looking for it. Rather we are to go about spreading the gospel and trying to live a godly life.

However Christians can expect to experience persecution as, Jesus told us, we are in the world but not of the world, and the world hates us because it hated Him.

John 15:18-21 18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’a] If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. 2

@OpheliaWasntMad RedTagAlan used to be a Christian but is now an atheist, if I recall correctly, @RedTagAlan ? I also don't think he/she needs to give a location, we shouldn't expect that from online interactions, in my view.

Does it that tell you something about Christians do you suppose that your sample of two both decline to answer your questions?

I’ve seen you decline questions so perhaps just respect that we can all choose what questions we want to answer.

Why are my motives suspect. It's just a chat on the web. The thread moved to persecution of Christians in general. Surely what the bible says about persecution is relevant. Some verses:

1Pe 5:10 And the God of all grace, who called you to His perpetual glory in Christ Jesus, having suffered a little, Himself make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle [you];

Rom 5:3-4: And not only [so], but we also boast in the tribulations, knowing that the tribulation works endurance; and the endurance, experience; and the experience, hope;

Mat 5:11-12: Blessed are you whenever they may reproach you, and may persecute, and may say any evil thing against you falsely for My sake-- rejoice and be glad, because your reward [is] great in the heavens, for thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

All quotes Litteral Standard version Bible.

So yes. Persecution and suffering in the name of Jesus is a part of Christianity. It is something that is rewarded, according to the Bible.

Why does mentioning that mean some sort of suspect motive?

So @OpheliaWasntMad . Do you agree that is what the Bible says ? And I can try to rephrase it any way, or you can rephrase it if you like. Try this version. Does the Bible say that if you are persecuted for your faith, and you keep your faith, you will be rewarded ?

What I think or believe is not relevant.
What matters is that people take religious oppression seriously and speak out against it .

So you won't answer a theology question on Christian persecution, even though you say , quote :

"I’m sticking with the subject matter- Christian persecution. It’s a subject I might know more about than you . I’m afraid I suspect you are more exercised by the fact that the culprit is Jewish than by the fact that Christians are the most persecuted religious group worldwide and nearly all the persecution happens in Muslim areas.
Edited to add - I don’t blame “all Muslims “ for this - I blame the extremists. The same type of extremists who oppress Muslim women and girls and gays . They are not the Muslims I know."

"It’s a subject I might know more about than you". Is what you said. But you wont discuss what the Bible says about it. And here you are downplaying alleged Israeli persecution against Christians in a discussion with @FloralDeerPattern.

Fair enough, you did say "No - we shouldn’t just ignore persecution of Christians- wherever it happens it’s abhorrent.
Im just pointing out that Israel’s record is a lot better than almost ever other country in the Middle East ."

So that's .. but they are not as bad as them. A strawman.

That's why I find this subject so interesting.

Persecution by proxy I suppose. But it does often appear to depend on who is doing the persecuting.

And yes, I have had similar conversations before. Where a Christian claims persecution, but when I remind them of what the Bible says about it... brick wall.

Should I presume you've had long conversations on the Christian board of this site already, if you're really interested in a definitive answer from a more representative sample than available on this board.

I have no idea how individual Christians interpret concepts in the Bible, but I do know a lot of what is in the Bible. And I do know many have trouble with the persecution part. Because follow the concept to it's logical conclusion.

I do remember having philosophical discussions in RE about what we know compared to what we believe. Humanity is a subjective experience after all.
Of the billions who profess to follow Christianity I suspect there will be variation on the matter.

Of course. So what is the logical conclusion of blessing coming from persecution ?

For some Christians, not for all.

Define persecution. A bit of teasing, or a death sentence.

That comes down to how individual Christians define it. Some say teaching evolution is persecution. I have been accused of it when debating Christians on the Bible. I have no idea how each individual defines it.

An example I gave upthread. An Orange marcher might claim persecution for not being allowed to march through a Catholic area. The Catholics claim persecution if the march is allowed. Personally, I would say the Catholics had a very strong case there. But an Orange marcher still does have a claim.

I've lived my life surrounded by Christians both personally and academically and have never come across this concern.
Christians are aware they might be persecuted for their faith. They are aware Christians in parts of the world are persecuted for their faith. They pray for those Christians. They believe God will reward those people in heaven for their faithfulness in hardship. I've spent ( way too much ) time in evangelical circles in NA and I have spent time with Christian 'missionaries' in the ME and I've never come across a Christian who believes they should be persecuted for their faith, or any who seek it out. I just can't see your point at all.

I am not saying they believe they should be persecuted for their faith. But what the Bible says certainly affects how individuals perceive persecution.

Example here. Starbucks coffee cups.

Starbucks Holiday Themed Cups Cause Boycott From Christian Groups — Here's Why (mic.com)

What are you saying then?

Well, if you notice, I have not said anything about where this persecution thing can lead to. People seem more interested in debating if the bible says that, or that is not what the bible means. I suspect because the conclusion is obvious.

Why don't you just be open and direct about the point you wish to make?

People know what the Bible says, or can look it up. People can interpret the Bible in different ways. Such is the beauty and danger of all religions.

Ok. Lets go back to the start. Does the Christian bible say that people persecuted for their faith will receive blessings ?

That is what I asked a poster who posted a link about persecution of Christians.

Why don't you answer the question posed by @dairydebris ?

You seem to like asking lots of questions but rarely answering them.

Yes. Some verses mention Christians will be blessed for enduring hardships for their faith. There are also verses that say to Christians the blessings will come in heaven. It's common in religion for blessings to be offered in return for loyalty, acts of service etc. Anyone can look up these verses.
Christians generally take strength from this.

Did you have a further point? It seems you're suggesting something else but I can't figure out what?

@GentleSheep gave you a good answer too I think.

Cool. And that is my point. That if a religion rewards those who are persecuted, there is an obvious difficulty in how to record and report persecution.

And note, when the PP posted the link about persecution, I did not dispute it. I am not saying if something is or is not persecution. I can saying it is rather difficult to be precise about it, when the religion itself rewards it.

This leads to the scenario where even when not persecuted, some people will find a reason to claim it. In the US for example.

I'd say to your first paragraph that most Christians don't expect to record and report it anywhere other than to God. Their rewards come from God, not from this world.

I think your larger point is that some Christians will twist their religion for political point scoring? Yes I see that especially in the US and in some other countries too. Its not unique to Christianity.

Religion is a system of control and assimilation of culture imo. It's a part of human nature.

And there you go. My conversation was with a PP who would not say what you just did. Other posters joined in. And you just agreed with the premise. No need to go further really on the nitty gritty of how many believe in that etc.

For example, I don't see it as twisting the religion. It is really a fundamental part of it, according to the Bible anyway.

Fundamental or fundamentalist. I'm sure there's stuff about an eye for an eye in there somewhere but in my part of the world that is considered extremist language.