Are you neutral and knowledgable?

[Itsokaytomorrowisanewday]

If you are both knowledgeable and neutral, please can you explain the current issues in the Middle East- why is there conflict between Israel with Lebanon, and Iran and Gaza? What is the history leading up to this current conflict ? Why are the USA involved? Why do the USA want NATO to be involved?

I thought I knew what was going on for a while, but the speed of information, and the bravado and bluster, has got me confused. It now feels like Orwell’s 1984 with a stream of endless wars and no one is quite sure who the enemy is anymore.

Neutral: yes
Knowledgeable: not hugely

But from reading up on it, the problems between Israel and Iran boil down to a level of mutual dislike - Iran feeling that Israel doesn't have a right to exist, seriously compounded by Israels appalling actions in Gaza. I understand there have been dreadful actions on both sides over decades.

Israel has wanted to drag the USA into it for years but its a fraught situation and not easily winnable, Trump is basically on an ego-flex. Trump also believes that he should say jump and the rest of the world (especially Europe & NATO countries) ask how high.

He fundamentally misunderstands the point of NATO, although I've seen a few things shared online lately where it's been misnamed the North American Treaty Organisation instead of the North Atlantic Treaty Orgnisation so he is perhaps not alone in this .

Trump has imperialistic ambitions, from who he admires to his renaming of national institutions, to his desire to control the oil rich countries and the world markets. He thought he saw an easy opportunity to assert control in the middle east and ignored / fired all those who advised against it.

There’s a conflict in the Middle East topic which may be helpful - if you ask MN to move this, the posters on there should be able to help

Thank you

Thank you

How are you judging this? This poster admits to not being knowledgeable and clearly is not neutral. So what's the point?

Why don’t you give your perspective?

And this is WHY there is a separate topic 🙄

I was being polite thanking someone for their contribution. I don’t expect anyone on mumsnet to be experts. I just didn’t want a thread with people angrily typing that their view is right and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong. Of course we will all have a bias, even subconscious. I was just hoping for a polite and a calm discussion.

You won’t get one. Anyone who knows anything about it has strong views. Certainly on here.

No one is neutral and if they pretend to be they are lying. Everyone is standing somewhere with all our socialisation, prejuduce, interests and bias.

My neutrality is that powerful men have buggered the entire region for the entirety of history. And continue to.

Top tip: If anyone tells you they're neutral on this then they won't be.

As has been proven already

A critical education teaches students to objectively weigh up facts and draw conclusions. Drawing a conclusion doesn't affect neutrality but having pre-existing biases do.

Iran is funding terrorism against Israel ( and the West generally) by funding the Houthis (in Yemen), Hamas (in Gaza), and Hezbollah (in Lebanon). The history is complicated but basically it wouldn't be good if Iran ever had nuclear capability. The IRGC in Iran are a terrorist regime who make like hell for women/ girls/ anyone who doesn't follow their strict Islamist teachings and have murdered around 30000 of their own ( mainly young) people in the last couple of months. The Lebanese government hasn't managed to get rid of Hezbollah on their own and Israel are currently trying to get rid of them so they stop lobbing rockets into Israel!

And this is an example of a non-neutral post. Allow me to add some balance:

Don't start with the womens rights BS when the first thing US/Israel did in this war was bomb a girls school. Netanyahu doesn't care about womens rights. Don't even get me started on Trump.

Your post is also missing amongst other facts that Israel has displaced a million Lebanese people; many Paletsinans have been displaced many many times; no one knows how many nuclear weapons Israel has and that Israel is passing a law where the death penalty will apply to Palestinans only. Oh, and the west bank (which has nothing to do with Hammas) is fair game to Israel too. Also that Israel imprison and toruture children.

Most importantly of all: if you state these facts, you are branded an anti-semite. Israel can do no wrong and will not be held to account. The unjstifiable will always be justifable as long you are Israel and we keep reminding ourselves that it is the only democracy in the middle east!!

@Itsokaytomorrowisanewday, I don't think anyone on Mumsnet, or any other SM is sufficiently neutral and knowledgeable enough to answer you properly.

You're best to seek factual, historical stuff and take it from there.

And this is an example of a non-neutral post.

Seconded. If you only mention the atrocities done by one group, and pretend the ends justify the means for anyone, you aren't neutral.

Neither.

Next question.

Perhaps people could share their recommendations of neutral reading materials?

Theres no quick way to do this. You need a background knowledge of Jewish and Islamic history, and a lot of patience for endless 'yes, but' and a very strong stomach. Mumsnet isn't the place to get what you ask for.

You are only 'branded' an antisemite if you say and do antisemitic things but someone claiming that if you criticise Israel you will be called antisemitic is usually a very big red flag. They usually don't know very much for a start (evidence in this post - I've never met a Jew that thinks Israel can do no wrong). Again rather than mudslinging on here, start with the IHRA definition of antisemitism (crucially the examples) and do some reading.
Dave Rich, Everyday Hate, and David Baddiel, Jews Don't Count, are good places to start, not least because they have different starting points on Israel.
holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism

OP I don't think it is possible to be knowledgable and neutral. Once you know, anyone with a conscience would be outraged at the injustice.

100 attacks on Lebabon last night in 10 minutes. Hundreds dead. Are we supposed to believe that everyone dead is a hezbollah terrorist?

Everytime there are talks and ceasefires, one country that ignores them and continues to break international law.

You mis read my post: I wasn't referring particularly to jews saying that they can do no wrong - I meant in a more general sense. I have been called anti semetic in conversation for questioning the Israeli government. I don't know what the religion of the person criticising me was - it wasn't relevant to my point that no state should be beyond accountability.

Stating facts isn't "mudslinging" - this what I mean - some people can't cope when the state of Israel is presented negatively. I'm calling the country out on their poor behaviour - I didn't mention Jews or jewishness once.

Thanks for the resources, I am actually someone who reads a lot and has been reading and following things on and off for over a decade. I am familiar with those texts - bold of you to assume that I don't read. There is a wealth of material on this topic though and I still wouldn't claim to be "knowledgable" because there is so much context you need to understand about history, language, theology, religion, politics etc.

But just from what I have read - it impossible to stay neutral. Injustice and opression leaps out at you and this is more apparent, the more I read.

But you are only calling out one country on its 'poor behaviour', with apparently no sense of the irony of your criticisms, most of which apply to Iran on a much bigger scale. Anyone can cherry pick 'facts'. Though you do seem unaware that Hamas also operates in the West Bank so even your facts are a bit shaky.

My reading suggestions were really for the OP.

One siding it is proof that you are not neutral. Plenty of injustice on both sides. Neutrality demands we look at both sides of the story. If you believe only one side is at fault then you'll need to examine your pre existing prejudices.

I’m neutral in my opinion that Israel, Hamas, Iran and Hezbollah are all mad bastards (the governments/leaders not the citizens)