Are you neutral and knowledgable?

[Itsokaytomorrowisanewday]

If you are both knowledgeable and neutral, please can you explain the current issues in the Middle East- why is there conflict between Israel with Lebanon, and Iran and Gaza? What is the history leading up to this current conflict ? Why are the USA involved? Why do the USA want NATO to be involved?

I thought I knew what was going on for a while, but the speed of information, and the bravado and bluster, has got me confused. It now feels like Orwell’s 1984 with a stream of endless wars and no one is quite sure who the enemy is anymore.

At the end of the day I would far rather have to walk back from calling it genocide than realise that for years I've been a genocide denier and in lots of cases an excuser of genocide too. We can only work with the information that we have now. I think that you would have to be pretty cocky to think that you know more than MSF, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, B’Tselem, UN Human Rights Council Commission of Inquiry etc so for now I will stick with the expert opinions that we have and I feel very comfortable with that stance.

I can't see any way it could be called a genocide. The IDF have gone out of their way to warn civilians in Gaza of strikes and try to minimise their deaths whilst their actual government has gone out if it's way to put them in harms way. The civilian to combatant ratio in Gaza is actually low despite there never have been an urban conflict like it. There has definitely been war crimes committed and these should be prosecuted fully but I just can't see genocide holding up. If that was a judgement, and more evidence came out I would accept that and apologise but I really can't see it happening.

@Itsokaytomorrowisanewday

I think a really good example of a poster who was extremely knowledgeable and neutral is @cinnyris (haven’t seen them since), particularly on the discussion around genocide which is on a thread on called ‘Israel committing genocide in Gaza world’s top scholars on the crime say.’
They wrote some intelligently lucid and extensive posts on this

pps 19-23 I think early July 2025

I agree. To quote cinnyris who as you can probably tell, really impressed me - wonder where or who they are now??:
In balance, the fear of calling it out as genocide when it turns out that these scholars and humanitarian institutions were correct has done immeasurably more damage than would have been done had those institutions and scholars been wrong, but the international community had acted per their obligations.
Which is worse: that we call Israel out for genocide, and we are wrong, or that we don't call them out, but it is genocide, and they are not held to account?

I think you should accept that people hold different opinions.

Genocide is a very specific term which is why some of us object to the way it is used freely - often by people who don’t understand that it’s not something armchair analysts can determine.

Just because it takes a strong legal case to determine whether a genocide has occurred, that doesn’t mean people can’t see what is happening in Gaza and other wars around the world. The international community sees it and it isn’t the lack of a legal definition that stops action. It’s that the situation is way more complex than is often portrayed on MN and it’s not just a case of Israel = Bad, so may as well punish the country now regardless of the legal position.

There is blame on both sides that goes back a ridiculously long time. The actions of Hamas do the Palestinian people no favours when it comes to the international community. It’s also fair to say that the actions of the current Israeli government do the people they represent no favours either.

That's a good example of the hypocrisy of some politicians and some citizens.
Lots of people have no interest in the fact that starting this latest war, not to speak of many others, was illegal and fully support blowing up innocent people and destroying their homes and infrastructure, but apparently we need to wait however many years while Gaza is deliberately flattened and the Israeli politians and some of their citizens laugh about it before proclaiming it a Genocide.
It makes no sense to me.

'If you were in Germany in 1944 and someone said that genocide was being committed, would you tell them that’s just an opinion until we get a legal verdict out of Nuremberg in 1946? If you wouldn’t have said that then you shouldn’t say it now…'

I wonder. Lots of people seem to be full of excuses for the action of the Israelis on the basis that it hasn't legally been found to be a genocide at present. Even if these actions are not legally found to be a genocide by an independent court, the actions will certainly still be denounced.

I don't know much about Iranian history but a quick google tells me that the US/British coup was not much feted at all. The US/Brits overthrew the democratically elected Iranian leader because he had nationalised Iran's oil and they wanted control of another country's natural resources (sounds a bit like Maduro doesn't it. What happened to him?!) The Shah is described as having enforced authoritarian rule, backed by secret police and re-opening the oil to Western countries. He was extremely unpopular with the population. Yet another example of British and US destructive interference in the other countries manage their affairs

Lots of these equally make no sense to me.

Like why it isn't acknowledged more who started the war that caused the so-called genocide. It was Hamas, it wasn't Israel.

Also, Israel weren't determined to kill every Palestinian, only every Hamas member that they could find. Very different situation to the Nazis who wanted to kill all Jews - genocidal intent.

Time for me to leave the thread because I find comparisons with Nazi Germany offensive and worry that they are potentially upsetting to Jewish people who may read this thread.

Allusions to the Nazis are grotesque, ahistorical, innaccurate and antisemitic and if people can't see that then I have absolutely no interest in their opinion on the war or faith in their ability to understand or recognise genocide.

The fear of calling it a genocide? Where, exactly? Thousands of posts on here, thousands of placards, millions of chants, hundreds of articles in mainstream and niche press- there is no need to fear calling it a genocide, its laughable to pretend people fear calling it a genocide. You're not a brave, pioneereering truth speaker at grave risk to yourself. You're saying what most people believe.
Why do most people believe it is the more salient question.
Personally I think it's because of the constant stream of images, videos, discourse of atrocity coming out of Gaza. Particularly of children. How could we not hate those who would do this to innocent women and children?
But I think many haven't studied other wars. And I think many haven't studied other genocides.
What's happened in Gaza is wholesale destruction of property, war, disregard for Palestinian human life, numerous occasions of war crimes, many, many pointless awful deaths of uninvolved civilians. But these are features of war, not features of genocide.
Features of this war that may make it unlikely to be deemed a genocide- evacuation orders before bombing, roof tapping, the deliberate presence of militants in civilian areas, the non wearing of uniforms by militants, and really importantly- that the slaughter could have been stopped at any point by the sufferers themselves by surrendering, and also importantly that Israel could have very easily wiped out a lot more innocent Palestinian lives without risking Israeli lives. Lets not forget Hamas' own statements about how expendable the lives of Palestinians are.
Features of genocides that are not here- the systematic, diliberate targeting of civilians in the absence of a military target in the area at all. Odd occasions of war crimes are not systematic policy. Mass murder- meaning the dilberate murder in cold blood of groups of non combatants, such as the church burnings in Rwanda, the buses into the desert of the Anfal, Srebrenica, the gas chambers etc.
I think a lot of posters don't realise how absolutely awful war is, the inhuman things all races of people do to each other under the cloak of war, and that war is bad enough on its own without labeling it as a genocide.
I believe there is still a case to be made for genocide because of the withholding of aid, and the words of the far right in Israel who currently have BN's ear. I also know that I'm not actually privy to actual Israeli policy in Gaza and its possible there is indeed intent at the highest levels that we just don't know about. I also don't know if the case can take into account recent violence in the WB because I believe some of that certainly amounts to ethnic cleansing which is often a feature of genocides- this could betray intent against Palestinians at a very high level- maybe someone legal could comment.
Will be watching the case very closely indeed.

That was me being very neutral.

And when you say which is worse- well you've completely ignored the consequences of making an incorrect accusation of genocide against the people who have suffered the worst genocide in human history, the pain that accusation causes, and the hatred it builds in communities. Even if you personally never accuse Israel of genocide, will the ICJ drop it's case? Nope. It's out there. You 'calling Israel out' for genocide on here has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or not Israel has commited a genocide or whether or not it will be found guilty.

Personally I prefer not to make extremely inflammatory and painful accusations where experts disagree and I personally am not privy to full info.

But I think many haven't studied other wars. And I think many haven't studied other genocides

This really doesn't tally with Amnestys in depth investigations, interviews with victims and witnesses, field work etc into genocide in Rwanda, Srebrenica , Myanmar. MSF who had staff working in Kigali and other areas of Rwanda, attempting to treat victims despite militia checkpoints and active violence during the genocide there.

These organisations are full of experts in their field who deal with the worst human race can dole out day after day, year after year and have done for decades. The idea that they just aren't very experienced and don't understand what genocide is would be laughable of it wasn't so absurd.

People need to start listening to real experts who have vast experience of war zones and international law, not internet armchair experts who care more about the hurty feelings of the perpetrators than they do of expert opinion.

Amnesty has been shown time and time again to be unreliable and the nature of the way they work will predispose them to seeing only one side of the story. And as you know, 'experts' disagree. There are many experts who are equally clear that there is no conclusive evidence that its genocide and lots of evidence that it isn't, as Dairy sets out in her post.

By perpetrators I assume you mean the Israeli government. I've never seen anyone here express concern for the 'hurty feelings' of members of the government, have you?

The feelings that were being referred to in Dairy & Twiglets's posts were those of the Israeli people and Jewish people. Are you actually collectively accusing them of genocide? Are you really dismissing the real life consequences of this issue? When we are seeing rising hate, and Jewish people being killed?

And when you say which is worse- well you've completely ignored the consequences of making an incorrect accusation of genocide against the people who have suffered the worst genocide in human history, the pain that accusation causes, and the hatred it builds in communities.

I was responding to this. Dairy was clearly talking about the Israeli government and the IDF because that is who have been accused of genocide not the Israeli people and Jewish people collectively. She is clearly concerned about the 'pain' that these accusations might cause them.

It's a fine looking horse you rode in on though.

I don't give a single shit about the feelings of BN and his government.

I do give a shit about the rise of antisemitism and growing hatred in our communities, and the frequent Holocaust Inversion seen frequently and used by antisemites to justify their hatred.

Really, your post says the opposite of that? It is BN, his government and his army who have been accused of genocide and it is the people who are accused of genocide that your post clearly showed concern for. Maybe ask for your post to be deleted if you wrote it in error.

There are very many Jewish people who find it extremely offensive that debate around the genocide is being shut down by weaponising the Holocaust, so it depends which groups of people you are most worried about offending. Organised groups such as Jewish Voices for Peace and Na’amod amongst many others, protest against the use of the Holocaust to justify the Israeli government’s actions.

Jewish people are hugely diverse, not a collective who are all in agreement.

You know full well what she was saying and you are twisting it. Disgraceful.

The disgrace lies firmly with BN, his government and his army.

If you need further information you can start reading here to see who is being accused of genocide.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-international-concludes-israel-is-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza/

https://msf.org.uk/issues/gaza-genocide

www.btselem.org/press_releases/20250728_our_genocide

So why are you all piling on dairy who has been unequivocal in her criticism of BN?

Disingenuous.

You've read and responded to enough of my posts criticizing BN and his nutjob buddies to know I've no sympathy or support for them.

"There are very many Jewish people who find it extremely offensive that debate around the genocide is being shut down by weaponising the Holocaust, so it depends which groups of people you are most worried about offending. Organised groups such as Jewish Voices for Peace and Na’amod amongst many others, protest against the use of the Holocaust to justify the Israeli government’s actions."

Strawman @Ellen2shoes. I would never use the Holocaust to justify Israeli government actions or shut down debate. I literally joined the debate to discuss whether or not the facts on the ground lead me to conclude genocide and laid out my reasons. That's hardly shutting it down is it? And I'm a frequent critic of both current Israeli actions and BN.

Instead of these obvious deflections and purposeful misunderstandings maybe it'd be more useful to lay out from a neutral pov why you are so sure it is a genocide and are so comfortable with the accusation despite no legal finding having been made and in the context of rising antisemitism in this country.

Or don't. I'm losing interest in the circular arguments over and over- when people are purposely failing to engage with the larger picture and instead just trying to win silly points.

Honestly, at the risk of sounding like my 11 yo, whatevs. 🙄 trying to catch me out on a minor point when it was obvious what I was trying to say rather than engaging with the main important bit... yawn.
Back to the tulips 🌷

I have no idea why you are accusing me of piling on anyone. Bizarre

I know, enjoy the rest of your day 🌷🌷🌷.