Are you neutral and knowledgable?

[Itsokaytomorrowisanewday]

If you are both knowledgeable and neutral, please can you explain the current issues in the Middle East- why is there conflict between Israel with Lebanon, and Iran and Gaza? What is the history leading up to this current conflict ? Why are the USA involved? Why do the USA want NATO to be involved?

I thought I knew what was going on for a while, but the speed of information, and the bravado and bluster, has got me confused. It now feels like Orwell’s 1984 with a stream of endless wars and no one is quite sure who the enemy is anymore.

”A weak response to settlers”. You have certainly got your head in the sand.

I think you are misunderstanding it. It is not that they are exceptionally bad, it is that they should be firmly be removed from the “great to have a spot of friendly singing with” category of country and be put into “handle with care” “loose canon” “slap sanctions on it “ category of country.

Loads of countries are in that category with Israel. It’s not exceptional. Our relationship with Israel needs to change because they are not our ally. They do not prioritise diplomacy. They behave against our interest, they do not listen to their “friends”, they have no regard whatsoever for the tenuous apparatus of international law. Their behaviour in Gaza has left them with accusations of genocide. They are a risk to peace. They will suit themselves and won’t cooperate or compromise.

This is why their relationship is slowly changing with many countries that previously would have been seen as unconditional allies.

And the US unfortunately seems to be heading the same way.

Serbia has had dozens of people through the hague, genocide determined rightfully and their parliament apologised in 2010.

Accountability for the Serbian-led massacres during the Bosnian War (1992–1995), particularly the 1995 Srebrenica genocide, has been pursued through international criminal tribunals, state responsibility rulings, and domestic courts. While over 50 individuals have been convicted.
Key Accountability Mechanisms:

• International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY): Established in 1993, this UN tribunal in The Hague convicted over 80 individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide. Key convictions included:
• Radovan Karadžić: Former Bosnian Serb leader sentenced to life in prison for genocide and war crimes.
• Ratko Mladić: Former Bosnian Serb General known as the "Butcher of Bosnia," sentenced to life in prison for genocide and war crimes.
• Slobodan Milošević: Former President of Serbia, who was indicted but died in custody in 2006 before a verdict was reached.
• International Court of Justice (ICJ): In 2007, the ICJ ruled that the massacre at Srebrenica was genocide. While it did not find Serbia directly responsible for genocide, it ruled that Serbia violated the Genocide Convention by failing to prevent the genocide and failing to punish those responsible.
• Dutch Court Rulings (UN Liability): The Dutch Supreme Court upheld a ruling that the Netherlands was partially responsible (10% liability) for the deaths of 350 Bosnian Muslim men who were turned over to Bosnian Serb forces by Dutch UN peacekeepers at Srebrenica. The UN itself was found to have immunity.
• Domestic Prosecutions: Courts in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, and Croatia have also prosecuted perpetrators, though often with lower-level offenders

Its not perfect and it is limited but I agree that this is what should happen to Israel.

Im very critical of the US. I agree that accountability mechanisms are not enough but i there was accountability for the perpetrators of abu gharab torture, they werent celebrated on us tv.

I agree Israel is not exceptionally bad. Its equivalent to the Sudanese government and they disgust me also. They all deserve to be pariah states and i dont think I would find anyone defending them or calling me racist for detesting them.

Equivalent to the Sudanese government? Have you seen what's going on in Sudan? Where were the bomb shelters for civilians of El Fasher? You seriously believe there is any equivalence between Sudan and Israel?

And isn't Israel currently going through a genocide case at the ICJ? How is that 'facing no accountability'?

This is not a neutral viewpoint.

I despair of this place. I totally agree that Israel deserves much criticism currently, but its the utter failure to keep that criticism within the realms of proportionality and even reality that infuriates me. The visceral hatred people hold for a nation they often haven't even taken the time to learn the history of boggles my mind.

If I were to spend hours every day posting about the terrible crimes of black people, even if every single one of those crimes had taken place, people might question whether I was an anti black racist. This is just the same.

This.

I didn't say I was neutral. I definately have a strong anti-israel bias but I dont believe its routed in racism. I believe that it's justified but I probably would as I'm biased.

What i dont accept is that it is routed in racism or that i know nothing of the history. My previous partner for 6 years was Jewish and i loved his family and enjoyed being part of their traditions and attending their synagogue. I follow a number of Orthodox Jewish content creators and like them very much and enjoy learning about their faith and customs. I read and listen to a lot of Jewish and Israeli commentators and historians and greatly respect their insights - Avi Shlaim, Gideon Levy, Ori Goldberg, Daniel Levy, Alon Mizrahi and Ilan Pappe. Ilan Pappe is a hero of mine. I strongly recommend reading his books. I hate that Jewish people are feeling equated with the vile Israeli regime and I believe those that seek to tarnish critcism of Israel with antisemitism are linking the Israeli regime with all Jewish people and i think that ill-advised. I admire those young children who conscientiously object to serving in the IDF and face prison instead. I think its awful that mothers in Israel have to send their children off into the IDF. I desperately want peace for Israel as I do Palestinians and I feel that people that encourage Israel to continue their occupation and war-mongering are acting against the interests of the Israeli citizens and are more anti-semitic than i am.

As set out earlier - I explained how the TikTok algorithm led me to be passionate for the Palestinian cause and despise Israel. This was in response to a poster who seemed to geniuely be asking about what it was about the Palestinian cause that generated such ire for Israel.

If there was an active conflict in Africa forum on mumsnet filled with posters who support or defend or justify the actions of the Sudanese regime and their victims had active social media accounts in 2023-4 (Ive entirely given up looking on social media now its too heartbreaking) I'm certain i would be on there an equivalent amount of time arguing with the defenders of such evil.
I have lived in both regions for almost 2 years each.

Im also very strongly anti-US - ive got a Masters in international political science and i marched against the Iraq war also.

In order to help me confront my anti-Israeli bias, can you please help explain to me what is happening in Sudan which makes it tangibly different to what the Israeli regime have been perpetrating? Is there anything that they have done that Israel haven't done in Gaza and the West Bank or more recently in Lebanon so I can understand why you believe that it is a disproportionate comparison?

@dairydebris

You’re drawing false equivalence with black people. You are talking about judging races based on the crimes of a few. I am talking about disentangling ourselves from an administration that is a threat to global peace.

I also think we need to face up to a now world order with the way the US has gone…. But nobody seems to worry that I am focusing too much on the US or that I hate Americans

I remember the WCT in The Hague well. I know one of the judges.

The Sudanese government are condemned worldwide, certainly by the UK government. Where are the apologists speaking up for Sudan and justifying the genocide there? Is the US funding their genocide and actively supporting it?

Israel is certainly treated as a special case. They are funded and supported by The West. They have a huge amount of control over the whole political scene in the US, the most powerful country in the world, and have done for decades. Nearly every Western politician has repeatedly refused to condemn their actions. They turn their head as hundreds of thousands are murdered. Then, there are the Israel apologists. Not only are they all over the right wing media but there are even a lot of them on Mumsnet!
Absolutely, Israel is a special case. No wonder so many are appalled not only by their actions but by their power and the way in which the West enables them.

'I am talking about disentangling ourselves from an administration that is a threat to global peace.'

And there is this vitally important aspect too. Israel literally threaten global peace and the worldwide economy. There was one foolish poster on a different thread the other day saying that it was worth having 'a mild recession' to ensure that Iran don't acquire nuclear weapons.

What are you talking about? Western politicians criticise Israel all the time. As for Israel having a 'huge amount of control over the whole political scene in the US' it beggars belief. Just patent nonsense.

No, there are plenty of responses on this thread that have done this for me, if you really don't know what I mean. Which I very much doubt is the case.

Netanyahu doesn't think so - in his words - America is a thing that is easy to manouver
Source: Facebook https://share.google/TA8q5XuGthZ1y2XKc

I despair of this place. I totally agree that Israel deserves much criticism currently, but its the utter failure to keep that criticism within the realms of proportionality and even reality that infuriates me.

I think that calling sexual violence, beatings, murder, ethnically cleansing whole villages of people who have no right to self defence at all 'settler madness' is not proportionate. It completely and totally down plays the seriousness of the crimes that they commit every single day. It makes it sound like a bit of horseplay not the extremist often fatal Jewish terrorism that it is. That's without going into the fact that you call the IDF and Israeli governments support of this Jewish terrorism 'a weak response'.

The answer was completely wrong which hopefully have been told by now. I will post a brief history of the conflict later if no one else has by then.

We learned about the conflict at school - the conflict up the point when I was at school, obviously - were you not? Genuine question, it seems that most people don't know the roots of any of the current world conflicts.

Well I despair of anyone who says ‘Jewish terrorism’. It’s Israel. One country in the world. Not an entire religion.

There are plenty of reasons western countries have historically supported Israel in various ways. Without Israel, the entire Middle East would be ruled by various forms of Hamas. If israel disappeared tomorrow, all those terrorists would be able to focus on the rest of the western world. It’s not like they’d suddenly dismantle their violent, women hating culture and start setting up peaceful elections. They’d have all the time in the world to drive planes into buildings and shoot up Chanukah celebrations in Australia. So enemy of our enemy for much of it.

I do not think the current Israeli government has done me any favours, I think Netanyahu is insane, and Trump is worse. But I don’t think the likely outcome without Israel there is very appealing either. It’s all a giant mess.

What the settlers are doing, ethnically cleansing the West Bank of all non Jews(with the help of the IDF and the Israeli government) is extremist Jewish terrorism and I am far from the only one to acknowledge that. Calling it 'settler madness' is disgraceful, call it what it is religiously motivated extremism.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/over-1000-diaspora-leaders-urge-action-against-jewish-extremist-terror-in-west-bank/amp/

Without Israel, the entire Middle East would be ruled by various forms of Hamas. If israel disappeared tomorrow, all those terrorists would be able to focus on the rest of the western world.

In your opinion. Without a crystal ball no one can know what would have happened in the region if the state of Israel had never been created.

Find me one country that has engaged in an modern urban warfare in a densely packed country, with an enemy government that does not shelter its civilians in tunnels or bomb shelters, and has a lower civilian to military causality rate than Israel has achieved in Gaza.

Find me that.

Because Israel has operated itself in a way that will be the gold standard in military textbooks of how to conduct urban warfare due to way it has preserved enemy civilian life. It has out its own troops in danger, and death, through ground operations to do this.

Civilian deaths are terrible but inevitable in such a war. They would have been even lower if Hamas had protected its own civilians ( or just not started the war, of course). Rremember Hamas as hundreds of miles of tunnels under Gaza but reserved them for Hamas only and built NO civilian bomb shelters despite spending decades preparing for the war it started on Oct 7th.

The difference, of course, is that there is no genocide being committed by Israel.

You saw all the same horrors I did too. Every one. My little boy was 18 months when I saw it all too. Ive known how israel treats the Palestinians for decades but this was like having a live stream to hell.

Yes there is

You don't seem to know much about this, Sharon.
It is well know that Western politicians turn a blind eye, even encourage and fund Israel's atrocities, particularly the US. Recently, it is only the Spanish PM who has had the morals and guts to criticise Israel. On the other hand, multiple European 'leaders' (including the UK foreign sec) condemned Iran for responding after they were attacked by Israel and the US but failed to criticise Israel and the US. Have you been living under a rock?
The Israel lobby in the US is also well known. They are very wealthy and very powerful and have a huge influence on US politics. Trump received huge donations for his political campaign and so, no doubt, feels somewhat obliged. Again, have you been living under a rock?

Oh dear. A genocide denier. I guess you avoid all the footage of what Gaza looks like now, all the footage of the murders at point blank range, chasing children, raping women, all the comments made by Israeli politicians and civilians. Condoning a genocide should be a crime, never mind committing one.

I can't even watch most of it. It is inhumane and too upsetting.

Only an international court can decide if Israel has committed genocide or not (this is a fact confirmed by the UN) and there is an ongoing court case about it started by South Africa.

Until a legal judgement is reached - which could take years due to the complexity of the case - it is not legally correct to refer to it as a genocide.

People have opinions but it’s important to distinguish between opinions & facts.