Let's face it Iran is indiscriminatly hitting Israeli civilians targets including schools using cluster bombs.....

[mids2019]

Iran is firing missiles into heavily populated Israeli towns and have abandoned the pretence of targeting anything military.....this is just pure terrorism and does make you think what would happen if Iran did manage to develop a nuclear weapon.

Just hoping more of the missile launch sites can be taken out and this terrorist regime falls.

That is your opinion but it remains to be seen which country comes out with a better deal from the war out of the US, Israel or Iran. None of them will get everything they want so “Iran will be the victors” is simplistic even if they get some things they want. It’s bad enough Trump & Iranian leaders using hyperbolic language without us doing it too on Mumsnet.

My feeling is that both the US & Iran do want a fairly quick ceasefire now. Not so much Israel, but Netanyahu doesn’t control Trump.

Time will tell if Iran agrees to a ceasefire in the next few weeks or not. I think they will as long as they can get some concessions from Trump, but that’s equally just my opinion of course.

Iran is already making the RoW pay a huge price.
I haven't seen any evidence that Iran wants to negotiate or wants a ceasefire. Trump is making things up as usual. The Iranian official statement yesterday stated forcefully that there are no negotiations.
I don't know if Iran will be long term winners (they are doing v well from the oil tarrifs and high oil prices currently!) or not but I do think that the US will be a loser, as will Europe and plenty of other countries.
We are also seeing fuel shortages in a lot of places and rocketing prices. Aviation fuel shortages, fertiliser shortages and food shortages will become reality, plus other things as well if this does continue. All this talk of swiftly removing the regime is total nonsense.

Well atm Iran is planning to mobilise up to 1m people to fight the US should a land invasion happen.

The US is, on top of the 1000s already being sent, planning for another 10,000 troops.

Attacks all over the ME are increasing.

We've a group of lunatics running the show.

The "better" deal is the one we had, whatever comes out of this mess, we'll all be worse off.

Israel is not an ally in any meaningful sense of the UK. They are not in NATO. They are not in OSCE. Their ruling party was founded by a terrorist who killed many British soldiers and civilians. They operate an extremely aggressive cyber warfare policy of which British companies and organisations are frequently the target.

That's the problem. Trump is saying one thing (to anyone who still believes anything he says) but the evidence is overwhelming in favour of a worse and more drawn out conflict. The chances of 'a better deal' for Europe is 0% in my opinion.
Also, Bibi and the Israeli lobby are clearly controlling Trump. I would like to see these people at the front line.

100%, those who called for war and loudly advocated for it, should go and fight or send their of age children to fight.

Luckily, America is amending the maximum age to join to 42. Ben Shapiro a loud advocate should sign up.

Unfortunately Lindsay "never seen a war I don't love" Graham is too old, but I'm sure an exception could be made.

I expect half of the US would like to see a special exception made for Sen. Graham. What an odious man! I was watching one of those informative YT shows, similar to JN, and they were joking about LG Titanic style at the front of a ship in the Strait. I bet he would be an utter coward if he actually had to go anywhere near a war zone but he is constantly advocating for others to go to war and be killed.

Estimates vary but even 3.000 plus people killed by their own government would be completely shocking don't you think? And most estimates are much higher, including the one from the Iranian Ministry of Health:

A bit off topic but this keeps coming up and I don't understand this, why its seen as so much worse to kill 'your own people' than just killing people? Israel did this is Gaza, they killed over 800 people in a single day, and a lot more children, out of a population of 2million vs 90million. The people who called that shocking and protested against it were called 'useful idiots' and 'hate marchers'. People are people, killing people is killing people imo. Why is it seen so much worse for the Iranian regime to kill their people than it is for Israel to kill the people they keep under occupation?

Surely both are awful regimes who use killing and sexual violence as tools of oppression, the only difference is that Iran oppress their own people and Israel oppress the people that they occupy.

Indeed. I think most of us would agree, however there are those who will always justify Israel’s killing sprees.

While Iran is officially stating that there are no negotiations, behind the scenes they are engaging by responding to the US terms with their own terms.

Hopefully some agreement can be reached- enough for a ceasefire in the next few weeks.

Hopefully there will be a ceasefire. I can barely follow it. One of the things that absolutely fills me with anxiety is that what the Iranian regime says is starting to sound a lot more coherent than the stuff Trump is saying.

Then I start thinking we are all doomed.

Too, Israel has been Gaza’s government since 1967 as it is a military occupied territory.

Israel is responsible for stopping terrorism there and protecting the civilian population. Hamas, as a terrorist gang, is a type of organised crime.

The International Red Cross has a good brief on this.
https://www.icrc.org/en/document/ihl-occupying-power-responsibilities-occupied-palestinian-territories

I haven't seen on MN or IRL anyone who justifies 'Israel's killing sprees'.

Too, Israel has been Gaza’s government since 1967 as it is a military occupied territory.

You are incorrect. Israel left Gaza in 2005 after dismantling 21 settlements where Jews were forcibly removed by the IDF. Following fights with Fatah affiliated with the Palestinian Authority, Hamas was elected to govern Gaza from 2006. There have been no free elections there since then.

No, I’m not incorrect, you are.

Israel is the military occupier of Gaza.

This is a legal fact that has been upheld multiple times by the world courts.

Most of the international community considers Gaza to be occupied territory including the UK. It’s really only Israel itself that considers it not to be occupied.

The UK Government agrees that
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-10235/

Palestinians are under the governance of Israel.
All Palestinian Territories are Occupied by Israel.

“Notwithstanding, the UK Government considers that Israel’s degree of control over Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem “amounts to occupation under international law”, in line with UN Security Council resolutions and the International of Court of Justice (ICJ, the UN’s highest court). Given the contested nature of Palestinian statehood during the period covered here and the assessment of occupation, this briefing uses the term “Occupied Palestinian Territories” to describe Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem.”

What you are basically saying there is that the UK is at war with Iran - whereas the government seem to be bending over backwards to avoid saying that unless I have missed something?

Sorry for roundabout way of saying that Iran and Israel have both been killing their “own” civilians. Much like if the UK were bombing one of its Overseas Territories (Falklands, Bermuda, etc), it too would be killing their “own.”

The UK certainly has form for killing its own citizens in Ireland (when it was part of the UK) and in Northern Ireland. Not quite on the same scale but we are hardly innocent.

Nice try but in no way would Israel consider Palestinians their own civilians. Their civilians are the ones who live in Israel, not Gaza.
Unless you are saying Gaza belongs to Israel?

I think not ... many of the Palestinians who live in Gaza support Hamas (who want to destroy Israel) and I doubt they identify as Israeli.

Israel is the sovereign power over all Palestinian lands, therefore any person in the occupied territories is under the Israeli government. Legally, own civilians includes anyone you have sovereign power over.

(In addition, there are numerous Palestinians with Israeli citizenship so questions of identity are not really relevant.)

Gaza belongs to Israel then?

Really not been on threads where you see constant justifications for why Israel has to bomb hospitals / schools / refugee camps/ residential apartment blocks? Not been on many Middle East threads then…..

Of it wasnt for the iron dome there would be thousands of Israelis dead. Weird that Israel is the only country to provide air shelters in such a volatile region as well.