How will carrying out "powerful strikes " on Gaza help to get the bodies back?

[mouthpipette]

BN has resumed the attack on Gaza, surely finding bodies is easier when you are not being bombed, shelled, shot at and starved.

No I have never defended the Israel government's decisions to block humanitarian aid, either on previous occasions or now.

Unlike some on the pro Pal side, I can criticise both sides when I feel it is warranted despite overall supporting Israel.

I don't defend the Settlers and I don't defend blocking humanitarian aid and have always made this very clear.

So just civilian deaths then

Why say shame on me when I said it is a horrible phrase used by soldiers in a war zone. I'm pretty sure Hamas fighters will also think in terms of collateral damage though unusually, they seem to apply the same sentiment to their own children and adults as well as the other sides.

If you agree that wars are sometimes necessary then you agree that sometimes civilian deaths must happen in wars.

@Everexpanding you also accept that civilian deaths must happen if you agree with any wars around the world.

Then you must agree that sometimes you cannot recover dead bodies in millions of tonnes of rubble. And you must agree that you cannot kill children in retaliation for not finding those bodies. Alive children are more worthy than recovering dead bodies.

But if airstrikes haven't worked to show Hamas Israels intentions and change their behavior in the previous two years why did Netanyahu think last night would be any different?

Hamas do not care about the 22 dead Palestinian children. It didn't care about the 20,000 children in the previous 24 months so why would last night be different.

To be honest I think that @BelleHathor had the correct idea on the first page. This was a way to dodge the trial. That was what those children died for

I do agree that sometimes it will take time & specialist equipment to recover dead bodies though the lack of trust in Hamas makes it hard to say how many more they could have released if they were actually operating in good faith.

The retaliation in case you missed it was for the fact Hamas staged a fake discovery and return of a dead hostage.

And they killed some IDF soldiers who were behind the yellow line.

I don’t understand the logic of the dead children was to dodge a trial @Martymcfly24

The pause in the ceasefire can only delay not dodge the trial.

It remains to be seen whether Netanyahu’s swift retaliation will have been effective or not in sending a message to Hamas not to keep fucking around.

I agree with you that Hamas don’t care about the dead children.

I think they might take notice though that Trump couldn’t or didn’t stop the retaliation. I think they were starting to test the boundaries of what they could get away with, knowing that Trump is proud of the ceasefire.

It wasn't that they couldn't find the bodies.

It was that they already had the body, hadn't returned it, hid it, then pretended to find it.

Completely different scenario.

Is there anything that Hamas could do that would in your opinion justify restarting the war?

Wars do involve civilian deaths but International Law applies so wanton disregard for civilian casualties as demonstrated by dropping large bombs on civilian areas or in last nights case a family home do constitute war crimes ( particularly if, as in the case of Israel it has internationally funded access to extremely sophisticated weaponry which it chooses to use when it wants) as does the targeting of the infrastructure needed to support civilian lives, as in the hospitals, schools, bakeries and water treatment plants we have all witnessed Israel repeatedly destroying over the last two years.

That is a misinterpretation- Netenyahu didn’t “fund” Hamas- he opened Israeli borders so that Palestinian citizens could, on day visas, access Israel for work. This resulted in a significant increase in their average wages, something Netenyahu was of course aware would be feeding back into Hamas’ coffers, but based on the notion that if Hamas became sufficiently dependent upon the Israeli economy they would be less likely to attack.

Isnt this what everyone wanted? Instead of it being the “open air prison” there was movement across the border so that people could access the more economically developed Israel for employment opportunities? I’m not 100% up on the details, but in general I believe it was based on the “no two countries who have a McDonald’s have ever declared war on each other” theory- I.e.: that sufficient economic enmeshment makes people unwilling to risk conflict.

It obviously didn’t work- and clearly is a policy that won’t fly again, or at least for a long time. But it’s not like he was directly giving money to Hamas- rather trying to accommodate them to reach some sort of settlement (or at least that’s how I read it).

And those rules are voided by the Hamas policy of the use of human shields. Hamas hide their activity in civilian populations. This is beyond any serious doubt- the presence of the tunnel networks that opens into civilian infrastructure, further as well as the Hamas penchant for blaming their own incompetence on the IDF (their own rocket attack hitting their own hospital) leaves such claims that the IDF are striking civilians fairly dubious. The evidence, if you wish to dispute it, has generally been provided by AP, Washington Post, and the like. The existence of tunnel infrastructure under hospitals and other civilian infrastructure is not reasonably deniable- Hamas use Palestinians and civilian infrastructure as human shields.

The suggestion that there aren’t Hamas operatives hiding in civilian infrastructure can’t be taken seriously. The only serious consideration is, is there action proportionate? Well- that comes down to a) the particular military value of the targets hiding in these places (I can’t speak to this) and b) what reasonable means there are for the IDF to strike these military targets without risk to their own forces- Hamas are well known for boobytrapping buildings they operate in to kill or injure and capture IDF soldiers (for whom Israel has long had a policy of being prepared to exchange thousands of Hamas prisoners for even 1 IDF prisoner- indeed the mastermind of October 7 was part of prisoner swap for 1 IDF soldier).

I think that the collateral damage caused is horrible, but I’m yet to hear anyone propose a suitable, viable alternative. I would love to know exactly what the IDF should do when they have knowledge of a military target hiding in a hospital? Should they send their soldiers in to die or be injured or captured? No matter where you sit in this conflict surely this is a nonsensical action that anyone in command would not recommend takes place?

This

Palestinians. No agency. No power. No voice. Permanent victims. Nothing any of them can do will make the slightest bit of difference to their dire situation. Its hopeless. Theyre helpless.

Might as well continue exactly the way they are. Might as well change nothing. Try nothing other than occasional spurts of violence- accepting as their due the dire consequences on their people.

Sincerely hope there's Palestinian leadership out there in the wings, just waiting for their moment, to believe things can change. And that not all of them share this helpless victim narrative.

I would love to know exactly what the IDF should do when they have knowledge of a military target hiding in a hospital?

Here's a thought. They do nothing. Exactly what damage is that sole (or even multiple) military target doing to the IDF by hiding in a hospital?

But no, your only remedy is to bomb the entire hospital, destroying the infrastructure and killing or maiming every innocent person in the vicinity. The 'military target' will, of course, escape unharmed in the tunnels.

@Hiddenmnetter Would you like to comment on this article?

https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/10/1166201

The answer is that Palestinians are not allowed to live as equals in Israel, only as 2nd class citizens.

If you think Palestinians live harmoniously in Israel then you are clearly out of touch. There's a massive hatred of Arabs/Palestinians withing Israel. It's government policy and widely reported.

The comparisons between the events in Germany then and Israel now are valid.

Just as the same comparison can be made between South African Apartheid and the situation with Gaza being blockaded by Israel.

It's just a form of racial and religious discrimination and hatred. It's nothing new and it's just history repeating itself.

Any state that wants to live by interpreting a religious book as facts is doomed. Because they will always treat non-believers as less than them. To me, this has no place in a civilised society.

So yes, the whole of the middle east is going to be fucked for a long while. All because of ancient pre-science so called holy books written by blokes.

Copied from a different thread.

From the Facebook page of ' Bring Them Home Now ',
the hostages and missing families forum:
The family of Ofir Tzarfati, of blessed memory, who was kidnapped alive from the Nova Festival, murdered in captivity, and returned for burial in Israel, has released a new statement to the media from their home in Kiryat Ata.
Ofir was recovered by the IDF in late November 2023 and brought to burial in Israel. In March 2024, additional remains were returned.
Last night, more of his remains were brought back to Israel, marking the third time his family has had to reopen his grave.
Rishel Tzarfati, Ofir’s mother:
“I stand here today, forced once again to say goodbye to my son. For the third time. The third time I’ve been required to bury my Ofir.
There are no words that can contain this. This isn’t just pain, it’s ongoing emotional torture. A punch to the gut, an arrow to the heart, a wound that opens again and again.
What made the pain unbearable is the way Hamas chooses to play with the bodies of our children. With our pain. With videos, manipulations, and vile theatrics.
Hamas is lying to the world with false presentations of ‘searches’ and ‘discoveries,’ when it’s completely clear they know where most of the hostages are.”
Shoval Tzarfati, Ofir’s sister:
“Hamas executed a cruel manipulation by returning my brother’s remains instead of one of our 13 precious hostages who were supposed to be returned for proper burial in the Land of Israel, a blatant and contemptuous violation of the agreement signed and approved by both sides.”

I think you are not ready to accept that Israel actively wanted Hamas to have a stronghold in Gaza. It ensured arab neighbours sent millions to Hamas each month.

This was the policy of Israeli government - to keep Hamas in Gaza to prevent the PLO/Palestinian Authority from unifying Gaza and the West Bank. It did not want the prospect of a sovereign Palastinian state to ever be feasible.

It's a widely known policy and many people, even in Israel, are critical of Netanyahu for this. They believe it made Hamas stronger and enabled it to launch the October 7th attacks.

Israel letting in Palestinians to work is just making use of cheap labour.

One of the perks of having 2nd class citizens living trapped behind a wall - exploit them for cheap labour.

13 families were waiting the other evening for their telephone to ring,

to be given the news that it was their murdered family member that had been returned from hamas via the Red Cross and then the IDF.

Hundreds, thousands ( indeed surely millions ) of people were waiting around the world for this one hostage to return home to Israel.

it didn't happen.

instead hamas went through a sick farce.

hamas agreed to return ALL the hostages, Israel released 100's of prisoners and began a cease fire.

hamas have broken their agreement.

Surely no one expected the remaining hostages to be released in such tiny little groups of 4 then 3 then 2 then 1 etc.

meanwhile

13 families are still waiting...

Absolutely horrible @OlderGlaswegianLivingInDevon . The pain of the family is unbearable.They can't grieve in peace.

Death toll has risen to 101 now last night including 35 children. I can only imagine how their families and parents feel after the optimism of a ceasefire.

Human beings capacity for inflicting pain on each other is unbelievable.

and this does appear to be exactly what a large portion of the world thinks: Israel should not retaliate to the attacks of October 7. There should be no repercussions because the people who committed the atrocities hide in civilian locales. Which of course would only further exacerbate such attacks when people learn that hiding in hospitals lead to zero reprisals.

GW Bush came to power on a Presidential platform of the USA stepping back from international engagements (following on from
the Clinton years and the high US involvement in the Balkans). Then September 11 happened, and as a consequence the USA became embroiled in a 2 decades long, 20 trillion dollar engagement in the Middle East, that by conservative estimates put it somewhere between 3-4mn people dead (approx 800k dead from direct military action, of which approx 7k were US soldiers). No one seriously argued that because civilian deaths would follow the US shouldn’t engage in (originally) Afghanistan, then more widely Iraq and later conflict with ISIL. It’s weird to me that anyone thinks because civilian deaths might result that military action shouldn’t be taken against legitimate military targets. No one, anywhere else, thinks this is normal, or to be expected.

As for commenting on that article, then it says that the UN thinks Israel is guilty of genocide (or at least there is sufficient prima facie evidence to sustain that charge at the ICC). However, given that the UN and the ICC is essentially a body for grandstanding international politics I’m not quite sure why anyone takes it all that seriously. The UN speaks a lot and does little- well, I suppose discounting the UNWRA which was a tool for funnelling funds to Hamas, which appears to have been exceptionally effective. Forgive my cynicism, but one of the fundamental principles of any reasonable legal system is that it has an enforcement body. Law without police means, well, basically nothing. Why is there no established international police organisation? Because every government operates their foreign policy (including the operation of their armed forces) for the good of their own state (and hopefully the nation they represent). The idea that you would give money to an organisation that may end up taking action against you would be something that no one would (or ever has) signed up for.

The fact that certain Palestinian (or problematically Hamas) sympathetic operatives in the international legal order have managed to pull sufficient strings to get the indictment is no more evidence than if I took out a full page ad in the paper saying “my neighbour is guilty of murder”. I can’t prove it, I don’t have any reasonable hope of it being enforced, nor is there any outcome other than public opinion being influenced. It’s politics, not law or the action of systems of justice.

This. People are failing to recognise that Hamas have deliberately caused this break in cease fire. They also killed a Palestinian soldier. If they do these things they will provoke a response from Israel. So called innocent people of Gaza have hidden Hamas within their midst and voted them in the first place.

No I can well see that might have been an over-arching plan- balancing one political opponent against another, and the PLA (seen as the legitimate successors of Arafat) had a certain legitimacy in the region. Although the fact that Abbas has been “fairly” elected as President of the PLA continually since I was at uni (at least as far back as I remember) 20 years ago, suggests that the PLA is just as corrupt.

The thing is I still don’t read this as BN actively “supporting” Hamas, but rather failing to take a condensed active stance against them in order to continue the destabilisation of the enemy political front. I happen to agree that it was a very mistaken policy, but, hindsight is 20/20 and all that- I can reasonably see why someone might have taken that action, even if I disagree with it. Perhaps he felt it was a risk that was manageable, that Mossad could contain any serious threat (as the Iron Dome had managed rocket incursions for decades). I couldn’t venture to explain his thoughts, but I think that the account of this policy as aimed at destabilising the PLA is probably close to the mark- and the added benefit that it lead to economic development of Gaza helps because the less a people are suffering economically the less likely they are to be taking risks in conflict. It turns out this didn’t work. He can be rightly criticised for it, but it doesn’t amount to him “supporting” them (in the way that the term “the unions support Labour” would ordinarily be understood.

There is no Gazan military. It's all civilians. If they work for Hamas by picking up a gun or other role - they are still civilians.

There is no government in Gaza, it's been reduced to rubble. Hamas is just an insurgency now. Hamas will try to regroup and retain control in Gaza, maybe Netanyahu will help them like he has previously?

Do you remember when the US invaded Iraq? Any citizen who chose to defend their country was just labelled a terrorist to justify gunning them down.

It's an old tactic used by invading aggressors. Putin uses it during his invasion of Ukraine, calling Ukrainians that push back Nazis or terrorists.

This idea that it's all about Hamas and with Hamas gone all of a sudden Israel is going to stop controlling Gaza and subjugating Palastinians is total naivety!

Israeli's aren't taught to hate Hamas in schools, they are taught to hate Arabs and especially Palastinians.