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Conflict in the Middle East

Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

321 replies

NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 26/10/2025 16:40

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

OP posts:
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Thedawnchorus · 30/10/2025 22:41

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 30/10/2025 21:03

I would say that most if not all Palestinians and Jordanians (many Jordanians still do) would have described themselves as Arabs up until 1964.

Today the Palestinian population of Jordan is estimated at 50-70%.

The majority of Palestinians in Jordan have Jordanian citizenship but are still registered as Palestinian refugees in comparison to every other refugee ceasing to be one when they are granted citizenship of a host nation. This is despite most of them being descendants of ‘Palestinians’ who were in Jordan before the Arab Palestinian nationalist identity had even been created by Yasser Arafat.

Not difficult to understand why.

What total nonsense. Arabic referred to the language they spoke. Long before Sykes and Picot decided to divide up the Middle East for the sake of their colonial masters, individual Arab countries had their identities. Mesopotamians called themselves Iraqi, Syrians called themselves Souri, Egyptians Masri, Lebanese Lebnani, Jordanians Urdani and Palestinians Falastini. You are right about Palestinian refugees and their decedents expelled from Palestine during the Nakba in 1948 still refer to themselves as Falastini. They remember their heritage and how they were driven out of their land by European terrorists who have a bizarre claim to the land based on a mystical book which was written thousands of years ago.

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 30/10/2025 22:47

pipaw34782 · 30/10/2025 22:21

Blaming Jewish people for pogroms against them. I wish I could say this is a new low but I've seen it all before.

No low is too low for this lot.

Now we have terrorist inversion in addition to Holocaust inversion.

They skew facts so much it’s a wonder they can even see straight.

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 30/10/2025 23:01

Thedawnchorus · 30/10/2025 22:41

What total nonsense. Arabic referred to the language they spoke. Long before Sykes and Picot decided to divide up the Middle East for the sake of their colonial masters, individual Arab countries had their identities. Mesopotamians called themselves Iraqi, Syrians called themselves Souri, Egyptians Masri, Lebanese Lebnani, Jordanians Urdani and Palestinians Falastini. You are right about Palestinian refugees and their decedents expelled from Palestine during the Nakba in 1948 still refer to themselves as Falastini. They remember their heritage and how they were driven out of their land by European terrorists who have a bizarre claim to the land based on a mystical book which was written thousands of years ago.

Only total nonsense if it doesn’t fit your very clear agenda I guess:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_identity

Palestinian identity - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_identity

Grateful321 · 31/10/2025 03:42

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 30/10/2025 22:31

Also the same as saying all Palestinians are native to the geographical region of Palestine which was never a country and does not encompass the Arabian peninsular, Egypt, Yemen, and Algeria among others.

Palestinians are native to Palestine…. Regardless of their religion. Jews from all over the world are NOT native to the state of ‘Israel’.

Palestine was a country, is a country and will always be a country. No amount of ethnic cleansing is going to get rid of the Palestinian true identity.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Going-Solo-Roald-Dahl/dp/0141311428 <- if anyone is interested in reading (with an open mind of course).

SharonEllis · 31/10/2025 06:22

Grateful321 · 31/10/2025 03:42

Palestinians are native to Palestine…. Regardless of their religion. Jews from all over the world are NOT native to the state of ‘Israel’.

Palestine was a country, is a country and will always be a country. No amount of ethnic cleansing is going to get rid of the Palestinian true identity.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Going-Solo-Roald-Dahl/dp/0141311428 <- if anyone is interested in reading (with an open mind of course).

Edited

No amount of ethnic cleansing will get rid of Jewish identity and Jewish ties to the land of Israel.

Why are you posting a link to the autobiography of known antisemite Roald Dahl? What relevance?

SharonEllis · 31/10/2025 06:27

Notsolittlebutstillsoyoung · 30/10/2025 21:32

Indigenous thousands of years ago.
It would be like giving the UK back to the Romans!

Yes, there has been a minority. Jewish population there throughout, but that doesn't give them the right to boot out people that have lived in the land far longer and far more recently.

Think of how many times the UK has changed hands over the past 3000 years! Israel existing in ancient times is irrelevant now.

So where should Jewish people live?

NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 31/10/2025 06:29

Notsolittlebutstillsoyoung · 30/10/2025 21:32

Indigenous thousands of years ago.
It would be like giving the UK back to the Romans!

Yes, there has been a minority. Jewish population there throughout, but that doesn't give them the right to boot out people that have lived in the land far longer and far more recently.

Think of how many times the UK has changed hands over the past 3000 years! Israel existing in ancient times is irrelevant now.

"Indigenous thousands of years ago.
It would be like giving the UK back to the Romans!"

The Romans weren't indigenous to the UK though, so your example is incorrect.

OP posts:
SharonEllis · 31/10/2025 06:30

NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 31/10/2025 06:29

"Indigenous thousands of years ago.
It would be like giving the UK back to the Romans!"

The Romans weren't indigenous to the UK though, so your example is incorrect.

I don't think facts trouble many people on this thread. Its an incredible insight into a mindset though.

thingsarelookingupfornigel · 31/10/2025 06:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SharonEllis · 31/10/2025 06:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

But what narrative is the antisemitic Roald Dahl backing up here?

fortinbra · 31/10/2025 06:55

The British government signed the Balfour agreement and later supported the creation of Israel due to its own political interests. Sadly our establishment has never been motivated by humanitarian reasons.

FruitLooped · 31/10/2025 06:59

@NameChangedUnderstandingGained

From my limited understanding : the collapse of the Ottoman Empire (once thriving) was due to WW1 - and when new borders were defined, communities were split (Sykes Picot) and literally pencil lines were drawn to divide territory with no concern for the families that lived there.

Causing poverty, conflict etc - the West wants to control the Middle East for oil and gas reserves.

I think the Middle East would see Israel as an example of Western control, and taking more of their land/resources (the West will support Israel historically).
And then the West are anti-immigration when people try and escape poverty and war that we created in their countries.

FruitLooped · 31/10/2025 07:25

“The redrawing of borders by European colonial powers to establish influence in the region, creating artificial nation-states, led to conflicts between different ethnic and religious groups. The creation of Iraq, in 1921, brought together Sunni Arabs, Shiite Arabs and Kurds who had historically lived in separate regions under the rule of the Sunni minority. The tensions between the different groups impacted the escalation of militant Islam and conflicts that continue into the 21st century.”

FruitLooped · 31/10/2025 07:29

History books are written by the winners. I think we need to be very mindful
of that.

SharonEllis · 31/10/2025 07:34

FruitLooped · 31/10/2025 07:29

History books are written by the winners. I think we need to be very mindful
of that.

What does that mean? Its obviously and indisputably untrue. In the context of this conflict who are the winners? What did they win? There are thousands of history books written about the region from many different perspectives. Are all those historians winners? What did they win?

SharonEllis · 31/10/2025 07:36

FruitLooped · 31/10/2025 07:25

“The redrawing of borders by European colonial powers to establish influence in the region, creating artificial nation-states, led to conflicts between different ethnic and religious groups. The creation of Iraq, in 1921, brought together Sunni Arabs, Shiite Arabs and Kurds who had historically lived in separate regions under the rule of the Sunni minority. The tensions between the different groups impacted the escalation of militant Islam and conflicts that continue into the 21st century.”

Yes, lots of artificially created states across the region. Welcome to history. Why is this one the one that excites so much attention?

Grateful321 · 31/10/2025 07:42

SharonEllis · 31/10/2025 06:27

So where should Jewish people live?

Edited

They can integrate anywhere. Why do they specifically need a country/state? Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity. There is no specific country for each religion, in which you are automatically granted citizenship of.. just because you follow said religion?

Grateful321 · 31/10/2025 07:43

fortinbra · 31/10/2025 06:55

The British government signed the Balfour agreement and later supported the creation of Israel due to its own political interests. Sadly our establishment has never been motivated by humanitarian reasons.

Hear hear!

FruitLooped · 31/10/2025 07:45

@SharonEllis

Because I grew up thinking the West were ‘wonderful’ for winning two world wars and never knew about the devastation they caused in the Middle East until - probably the growth of the internet.

I think you need to consider the bias in everything you read, every newspaper, every source.
I gave an example of how Western control devastated a region.

I’m glad you know so much about history, because - despite going to a ‘good’ school - I was never taught this.

SharonEllis · 31/10/2025 07:52

Grateful321 · 31/10/2025 07:42

They can integrate anywhere. Why do they specifically need a country/state? Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity. There is no specific country for each religion, in which you are automatically granted citizenship of.. just because you follow said religion?

No. Jewishness is an ethnicity. Judaism is an ethno-religion. Non practising, completely secular Jews have the right of return. They are still Jewish. J

Jews have integrated wherever they have lived for 100s of years and time and time again Been persecuted and expelled. So, again, which specific country should they go to?

It is not possible to be this ignorant.

Thedawnchorus · 31/10/2025 07:59

NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 31/10/2025 06:29

"Indigenous thousands of years ago.
It would be like giving the UK back to the Romans!"

The Romans weren't indigenous to the UK though, so your example is incorrect.

By your logic then the Jews are not indigenous to Israel either as according to the Torah, they conquered the land of Canaan under Joshua, just as the Romans conquered Britain.

SharonEllis · 31/10/2025 08:03

FruitLooped · 31/10/2025 07:45

@SharonEllis

Because I grew up thinking the West were ‘wonderful’ for winning two world wars and never knew about the devastation they caused in the Middle East until - probably the growth of the internet.

I think you need to consider the bias in everything you read, every newspaper, every source.
I gave an example of how Western control devastated a region.

I’m glad you know so much about history, because - despite going to a ‘good’ school - I was never taught this.

Ok, sorry about your limited education. I agree that is poor, and I guess you have a lot to catch up on. Perhaps you should consider that people in foreign lands are real people, with their own histories, complexities and their own agency. Now you understand thst 'the West' is not 'wonderful' be aware of the bias of those who seek to perpetuate the lie that 'the West' is the source of all bad things that happen.

fortinbra · 31/10/2025 08:08

Grateful321 · 31/10/2025 07:42

They can integrate anywhere. Why do they specifically need a country/state? Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity. There is no specific country for each religion, in which you are automatically granted citizenship of.. just because you follow said religion?

They tried that for 2,000 years but it didn't go very well

Thedawnchorus · 31/10/2025 08:14

SharonEllis · 31/10/2025 07:52

No. Jewishness is an ethnicity. Judaism is an ethno-religion. Non practising, completely secular Jews have the right of return. They are still Jewish. J

Jews have integrated wherever they have lived for 100s of years and time and time again Been persecuted and expelled. So, again, which specific country should they go to?

It is not possible to be this ignorant.

Ethnicity is more than a shared religion otherwise every religion is an ethno-religion. Could you tell me, prior to the formation of Israel, what culture and traditions did a Yemeni Jew share with a European Jew. They didn’t even share a language. Yemeni Jews spoke Arabic, a semitic language and European Jews spoke Yiddish, a Germanic language. Other than during religious festivals, they ate different food, listened to different music and dressed differently. Please explain to me how that is an ethnicity regardless of the different physical traits.

SharonEllis · 31/10/2025 08:17

Thedawnchorus · 31/10/2025 08:14

Ethnicity is more than a shared religion otherwise every religion is an ethno-religion. Could you tell me, prior to the formation of Israel, what culture and traditions did a Yemeni Jew share with a European Jew. They didn’t even share a language. Yemeni Jews spoke Arabic, a semitic language and European Jews spoke Yiddish, a Germanic language. Other than during religious festivals, they ate different food, listened to different music and dressed differently. Please explain to me how that is an ethnicity regardless of the different physical traits.

Sorry, you are trying to rewrite the well established definition of a people and a culture? I am not even going to engage in this attempt to delegitimise the Jewish people. The formation of the modern state of Israel is irrelevant to this. Go and do some basic research.

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