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Conflict in the Middle East

Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

321 replies

NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 26/10/2025 16:40

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

OP posts:
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BananaPeels · 30/10/2025 18:28

BananaPeels · 30/10/2025 16:28

No genuinely I don’t understand that’s why am asking. The British mandate for Palestine covered what is Isreal and Jordan. It was divided up between an Arab state and a Jewish state. So they both occupy the area known as Palestine .

I can’t get an answer why nobody mentions that Jordan is Palestine as well. Why is no one demanding that Jordan reliquishes their occupation of the area?

This is the map I mean btw. I have looked online and I genuinely don’t understand why no one talks about Jordan. Maybe I’m missing something.

Deeper understanding of why Israel was created
thingsarelookingupfornigel · 30/10/2025 19:05

My Arabic reading isn’t as good as it should be. How’s yours?

dairydebris · 30/10/2025 19:20

BananaPeels · 30/10/2025 18:28

This is the map I mean btw. I have looked online and I genuinely don’t understand why no one talks about Jordan. Maybe I’m missing something.

You're not missing anything.

Palestinian Arabs were given approximately 70% of the former Mandate. Jordan, and the proposed state of Palestine.

Israel 30%.

Wasn't enough, Arabs of the time preferred to attempt to wipe Israel out completely. 4 years after the Holocaust.

Jerusalem in particular is extremely important in Islam, and was formally Arab controlled. According to more radical Islam, once an Islamic land, always an Islamic land.

Unfortunately, Jerusalem is also of paramount importance to Judaism.

And here we find ourselves.

BananaPeels · 30/10/2025 19:34

dairydebris · 30/10/2025 19:20

You're not missing anything.

Palestinian Arabs were given approximately 70% of the former Mandate. Jordan, and the proposed state of Palestine.

Israel 30%.

Wasn't enough, Arabs of the time preferred to attempt to wipe Israel out completely. 4 years after the Holocaust.

Jerusalem in particular is extremely important in Islam, and was formally Arab controlled. According to more radical Islam, once an Islamic land, always an Islamic land.

Unfortunately, Jerusalem is also of paramount importance to Judaism.

And here we find ourselves.

Ok so I thought it was something like that - I just don’t understand why no one talks about it. Whenever they talk about a 2 state solution I keep thinking - well wasn’t there one already? I’m not particularly well read on the history.

don’t the Palestinians in Jordan get upset that their Palestinian identity was erased when they became Jordanian? are Palastinians in Gaza and the West Bank allowed to move to Jordan if they want as they are the same people?

dairydebris · 30/10/2025 19:45

BananaPeels · 30/10/2025 19:34

Ok so I thought it was something like that - I just don’t understand why no one talks about it. Whenever they talk about a 2 state solution I keep thinking - well wasn’t there one already? I’m not particularly well read on the history.

don’t the Palestinians in Jordan get upset that their Palestinian identity was erased when they became Jordanian? are Palastinians in Gaza and the West Bank allowed to move to Jordan if they want as they are the same people?

As I understand it, Palestinians ( as we know them today ) have a separate national identity to ( what we now call ) Jordanians. Studies done on genetic links show Palestinians today to have roots in the area we now call Israel and are closely related to ancient Jewish people, from the area known as Canaan ( yes the one from the Bible 😬 ). Some Palestinians have Egyptian and Jordanian heritage too. But I'm satisfied both have deep historical roots to the land.

Jewish history is remarkably coherent and well documented. Arab is slightly more nebulous in that separate Arab identities have more come about in recent times- as in the last few hundred years.

Anyway obviously its a deeply controversial thing to discuss but powerful cases can be made for both peoples to have a homeland in the area.

Jordanians got a state. Egyptians. Iraqis. Syrians. Lebanese. Iranians. Just not Palestinian Arabs. It's a legitimate grievance I think.

Opinions differ as to where most fault lies with them not getting their own state.

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 30/10/2025 19:53

dairydebris · 30/10/2025 19:20

You're not missing anything.

Palestinian Arabs were given approximately 70% of the former Mandate. Jordan, and the proposed state of Palestine.

Israel 30%.

Wasn't enough, Arabs of the time preferred to attempt to wipe Israel out completely. 4 years after the Holocaust.

Jerusalem in particular is extremely important in Islam, and was formally Arab controlled. According to more radical Islam, once an Islamic land, always an Islamic land.

Unfortunately, Jerusalem is also of paramount importance to Judaism.

And here we find ourselves.

It’s far more complex than Arabs just wanted to wipe Israel out.

The 1947 UN Partition Plan gave Jews around 55% of the land, even though they owned less than 7%, with the rest (plus Jerusalem as an international zone) earmarked for a Palestinian state. Arab leaders rejected it, which led to war and mass displacement. People often say “70% to Palestinians,” but that usually includes Jordan- today Gazans and West Bank Palestinians can’t just move there and Jerusalem remains a flashpoint for both faiths.

dairydebris · 30/10/2025 20:04

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 30/10/2025 19:53

It’s far more complex than Arabs just wanted to wipe Israel out.

The 1947 UN Partition Plan gave Jews around 55% of the land, even though they owned less than 7%, with the rest (plus Jerusalem as an international zone) earmarked for a Palestinian state. Arab leaders rejected it, which led to war and mass displacement. People often say “70% to Palestinians,” but that usually includes Jordan- today Gazans and West Bank Palestinians can’t just move there and Jerusalem remains a flashpoint for both faiths.

I agree more complex, I just wasn't up for a long essay tonight.

However, for Palestinian leadership back then, a Jewish state in the region at that time was completely unacceptable. I stand by that. A war of annihilation was planned and attempted. Many reasons why, and some totally justified.

I will forever find the unspeakably cruel intention of a war of annihilation on Jews who had recently survived the Holocaust to be one of the ideas that most drives my feeling on this. I believe Palestinians at that time should have at the very least declared their own state, and negotiated for possibly more land. Then perhaps launched a limited war to get more land they wanted. But failing to declare the State, and attempting to wipe out Israel completely instead of conceding their right to exist- for me thats where it stems from.

Opinions will differ of course and I'm happy for any incorrect facts to be pointed out.

Thedawnchorus · 30/10/2025 20:22

BananaPeels · 30/10/2025 16:28

No genuinely I don’t understand that’s why am asking. The British mandate for Palestine covered what is Isreal and Jordan. It was divided up between an Arab state and a Jewish state. So they both occupy the area known as Palestine .

I can’t get an answer why nobody mentions that Jordan is Palestine as well. Why is no one demanding that Jordan reliquishes their occupation of the area?

Jordan is Palestine according to who? Why not ask a Jordanian if they are Palestinian or ask a Palestinian if they are Jordanian. I think you know what their answers will be. Your implication is that European colonial maps are relevant to the actual ancient history of the people who have lived there.

dairydebris · 30/10/2025 20:23

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 30/10/2025 19:53

It’s far more complex than Arabs just wanted to wipe Israel out.

The 1947 UN Partition Plan gave Jews around 55% of the land, even though they owned less than 7%, with the rest (plus Jerusalem as an international zone) earmarked for a Palestinian state. Arab leaders rejected it, which led to war and mass displacement. People often say “70% to Palestinians,” but that usually includes Jordan- today Gazans and West Bank Palestinians can’t just move there and Jerusalem remains a flashpoint for both faiths.

I'd also like to point out that West Bank Palestinians were indeed offered Jordanian citizenship.

Obviously Gazans were not, as they were under Egyptian control at that time.

Anyone can look up the troubles Palestinians caused in Jordan if they wish.

They need their own State.

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 30/10/2025 20:46

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 30/10/2025 19:53

It’s far more complex than Arabs just wanted to wipe Israel out.

The 1947 UN Partition Plan gave Jews around 55% of the land, even though they owned less than 7%, with the rest (plus Jerusalem as an international zone) earmarked for a Palestinian state. Arab leaders rejected it, which led to war and mass displacement. People often say “70% to Palestinians,” but that usually includes Jordan- today Gazans and West Bank Palestinians can’t just move there and Jerusalem remains a flashpoint for both faiths.

You seem to have omitted that Transjordan was indeed Ottoman territory until WW1 and was part of the British Mandate for Palestine. The Arabs were given 73% of the land under the British Mandate which became Jordan.

The 55% quoted as given to the Jews was of the remaining 27% of the British Mandate. So the Jews were actually given 14% which is a rather striking difference to what you have tried to portray.

Notsolittlebutstillsoyoung · 30/10/2025 20:50

dairydebris · 30/10/2025 20:04

I agree more complex, I just wasn't up for a long essay tonight.

However, for Palestinian leadership back then, a Jewish state in the region at that time was completely unacceptable. I stand by that. A war of annihilation was planned and attempted. Many reasons why, and some totally justified.

I will forever find the unspeakably cruel intention of a war of annihilation on Jews who had recently survived the Holocaust to be one of the ideas that most drives my feeling on this. I believe Palestinians at that time should have at the very least declared their own state, and negotiated for possibly more land. Then perhaps launched a limited war to get more land they wanted. But failing to declare the State, and attempting to wipe out Israel completely instead of conceding their right to exist- for me thats where it stems from.

Opinions will differ of course and I'm happy for any incorrect facts to be pointed out.

Of course it was going to be unacceptable. It doesn't matter how much someone else has suffered, you don't have to give them anything.

If a previous owner of my house had since suffered intolerable cruelty and horrible times, I'd feel very sorry for them, but I'm not going to let them have my house back and me live in the shed. It's my house.

dairydebris · 30/10/2025 20:52

Notsolittlebutstillsoyoung · 30/10/2025 20:50

Of course it was going to be unacceptable. It doesn't matter how much someone else has suffered, you don't have to give them anything.

If a previous owner of my house had since suffered intolerable cruelty and horrible times, I'd feel very sorry for them, but I'm not going to let them have my house back and me live in the shed. It's my house.

So you dont think Israel should exist where it is then? You dont think the UN should have given them any land at all?

BelleHathor · 30/10/2025 20:55

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 30/10/2025 19:53

It’s far more complex than Arabs just wanted to wipe Israel out.

The 1947 UN Partition Plan gave Jews around 55% of the land, even though they owned less than 7%, with the rest (plus Jerusalem as an international zone) earmarked for a Palestinian state. Arab leaders rejected it, which led to war and mass displacement. People often say “70% to Palestinians,” but that usually includes Jordan- today Gazans and West Bank Palestinians can’t just move there and Jerusalem remains a flashpoint for both faiths.

Extremely far more complex and difficult to understand, yet extremely fascinating especially with how central Britain is to all this.

During World War 1 the British made many promises to different Arabs ethnic groups across the region to reward them if they fought with Britain against the Ottomans.

Following victory TransJordan was "awarded" to King Abdullah I who was installed as ruler by Britain in 1921 as part of their administration of the region. It was a self serving move as Britain did it largely to secure the territory and prevent Abdullah from challenging French rule in Syria. It was also a strategic move to create a stable, British-controlled client state and to prevent the region from falling under the control of his brother, King Faisal (who was "awarded" Iraq ironically securing the oil). Additionally it also prevented the area being included in the area designated for a Jewish National Home. All of these protectorates were created/ratified in 1921.

For those that are interested there is a lot of literature from the early zionists (including a 1915 article by Ben Gurion) lobbying for the whole of Transjordan to be allocated to be the Jewish Homeland.

Jordan is currently known as the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, this is because pre 1948 most Jordanians came from the Arabian peninsula where they lost 2 wars to the House of Saud (precursor to Saudi Arabia today) and were forced into exile:

The First Saudi-Hashemite War (also known as Nejd-Hejaz Wars or Al-Khurma Dispute) that occurred between 1918 and 1919 was instigated by Abdulaziz Ibn Saud of the Emirate of Nejd in his attempt to expand his territory westward in the Arabian peninsula. Abdulaziz was from the House of Saud from the eastern part of the peninsula. He was able to gain control of Al Khurma region from the hands of Sharif Hussein Ibn Ali, ruler of the Hashemite Kingdom of Hejaz.

The British was present in the peninsula at the time, and has effectively helped establish kingdoms in the region. Two prominent kingdoms at the time that vied for total control of the land were the House of Saud and the House of Hussein who ruled Hejaz in the west.

Although the Hashemite Kingdom of Hejaz lost the war to the House of Saud, the British did not allow the House of Saud to destroy the Hashemite Kingdom.

After a few years of relative peace through the mediation of the British, the Second Saudi-Hashemite War (or the Saudi conquest of Hejaz) broke out between 1924 and 1925. The Hashemite Kingdom of Hejaz asked military assistance from the British but it was denied because the British did not want to intervene in supposed religious disputes. This time the House of Saud conquered and incorporated into his domain the region of Hejaz. This war also saw the annexation of the holy cities of Mecca and Medina into his realm.

King Hussein of Hejaz fled to Cyprus and declared his son Ali Ibn Hussein as the new king of Hejaz, in exile. The British made sure the House of Saud would finally stop his expansion program at this point to allow the House of Hussein of the Hashemite Kingdom to continue to rule the Emirate of Transjordan and the Kingdom of Iraq.

SharonEllis · 30/10/2025 20:58

Notsolittlebutstillsoyoung · 30/10/2025 20:50

Of course it was going to be unacceptable. It doesn't matter how much someone else has suffered, you don't have to give them anything.

If a previous owner of my house had since suffered intolerable cruelty and horrible times, I'd feel very sorry for them, but I'm not going to let them have my house back and me live in the shed. It's my house.

How does this analogy relate to actual reality?

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 30/10/2025 21:03

Thedawnchorus · 30/10/2025 20:22

Jordan is Palestine according to who? Why not ask a Jordanian if they are Palestinian or ask a Palestinian if they are Jordanian. I think you know what their answers will be. Your implication is that European colonial maps are relevant to the actual ancient history of the people who have lived there.

I would say that most if not all Palestinians and Jordanians (many Jordanians still do) would have described themselves as Arabs up until 1964.

Today the Palestinian population of Jordan is estimated at 50-70%.

The majority of Palestinians in Jordan have Jordanian citizenship but are still registered as Palestinian refugees in comparison to every other refugee ceasing to be one when they are granted citizenship of a host nation. This is despite most of them being descendants of ‘Palestinians’ who were in Jordan before the Arab Palestinian nationalist identity had even been created by Yasser Arafat.

Not difficult to understand why.

AgentPidge · 30/10/2025 21:20

Mangetouts · 26/10/2025 20:19

The Bible....hmmm. Excuse me for not taking the content of that as gospel (and excuse the pun).

It does give the context though of why what is now Israel was chosen as the Jewish homeland.

Notsolittlebutstillsoyoung · 30/10/2025 21:22

dairydebris · 30/10/2025 20:52

So you dont think Israel should exist where it is then? You dont think the UN should have given them any land at all?

I don't think it should have been created there, no. I think it was an incredibly unfair decision by today's moral standards.

However, we are where we are, and Israelis have made it their home, and so now we need to either look for a fair two-state solution, or a one state unified land which is neither called Israel nor Palestine, and in which both people can live fairly. The status quo is not acceptable though.

Notsolittlebutstillsoyoung · 30/10/2025 21:24

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BananaPeels · 30/10/2025 21:27

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But if the Jewish population were the indigenous population wouldn’t it be right to give them the land back. Much like some land (albeit a small amount) has been given back to the indigenous populations in Australia and the US? What is the difference?

Notsolittlebutstillsoyoung · 30/10/2025 21:32

BananaPeels · 30/10/2025 21:27

But if the Jewish population were the indigenous population wouldn’t it be right to give them the land back. Much like some land (albeit a small amount) has been given back to the indigenous populations in Australia and the US? What is the difference?

Edited

Indigenous thousands of years ago.
It would be like giving the UK back to the Romans!

Yes, there has been a minority. Jewish population there throughout, but that doesn't give them the right to boot out people that have lived in the land far longer and far more recently.

Think of how many times the UK has changed hands over the past 3000 years! Israel existing in ancient times is irrelevant now.

BananaPeels · 30/10/2025 21:35

Notsolittlebutstillsoyoung · 30/10/2025 21:32

Indigenous thousands of years ago.
It would be like giving the UK back to the Romans!

Yes, there has been a minority. Jewish population there throughout, but that doesn't give them the right to boot out people that have lived in the land far longer and far more recently.

Think of how many times the UK has changed hands over the past 3000 years! Israel existing in ancient times is irrelevant now.

Then why has Uluru been handed back to the Aboriginal population?

i’m asking genuinely as I really don’t understand why some indigenous populations are considered valid and others not.

Grateful321 · 30/10/2025 21:38

Notsolittlebutstillsoyoung · 30/10/2025 21:32

Indigenous thousands of years ago.
It would be like giving the UK back to the Romans!

Yes, there has been a minority. Jewish population there throughout, but that doesn't give them the right to boot out people that have lived in the land far longer and far more recently.

Think of how many times the UK has changed hands over the past 3000 years! Israel existing in ancient times is irrelevant now.

Exactly!

Not all Jewish are native to the land. That’s like saying all Muslims are native to Saudi Arabia! They’re not! All Muslims around the world cannot claim citizenship/dual citizenship of Saudi Arabia and boot the actual citizens out!

cupfinalchaos · 30/10/2025 21:57

Thank you op for educating yourself and trying to educate others. It’s hard to take in the scale of it isn’t it. My parents are both Holocaust survivors and most of their relatives were murdered.

Arabs make up 20% of the Israeli population and are afforded every opportunity to thrive. It’s a tiny but incredible country and I know that if antisemitism gets any worse in the UK, I will go and live there.

Speaking of which, where are the marches in protest to the tragedy of the Sudanese slaughter?
No Jews.. no news.

pipaw34782 · 30/10/2025 22:21

Thedawnchorus · 29/10/2025 19:38

You really don’t understand the issue. It’s not about which side committed the most egregious crimes and it’s certainly not a game of me telling you facts while you copy and paste. Israel was born from terrorism. European Zionist terrorists were rewarded for their terrorism by the UK pulling out and leaving them to go on a barbaric genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestine resulting in the Nakba. You talk about why something happened so long ago is relevant. It’s simple. What is happening in Gaza and the West Bank is nothing more than the latest iteration of Plan Dalet which was put in place by Ben-Gurion. Nothing has changed. The only difference now is that Israel’s support by American religious fanatics is at a level where they can literally do anything they want.

Blaming Jewish people for pogroms against them. I wish I could say this is a new low but I've seen it all before.

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 30/10/2025 22:31

Grateful321 · 30/10/2025 21:38

Exactly!

Not all Jewish are native to the land. That’s like saying all Muslims are native to Saudi Arabia! They’re not! All Muslims around the world cannot claim citizenship/dual citizenship of Saudi Arabia and boot the actual citizens out!

Also the same as saying all Palestinians are native to the geographical region of Palestine which was never a country and does not encompass the Arabian peninsular, Egypt, Yemen, and Algeria among others.

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