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Conflict in the Middle East

Israel committing genocide in Gaza, world’s top scholars on the crime say

681 replies

Everexpanding · 01/09/2025 17:15

An overwhelming majority of members of the world’s leading genocide scholars’ association have backed a resolution stating that Israel’s actions in Gaza meet the legal definition of the crime.
Eighty-six per cent of those who voted in the 500-member International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) supported the motion. The resolution states that “Israel’s policies and actions in Gaza meet the legal definition of genocide in article II of the United Nations convention for the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide (1948).”

www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/01/israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-worlds-top-scholars-on-the-say

Gaza | The Guardian

Latest news, sport, business, comment, analysis and reviews from the Guardian, the world's leading liberal voice

https://www.theguardian.com/world/gaza

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Lolapusht · 01/09/2025 23:50

Commentary from a member of the IAGS who didn’t vote for the resolution. She’s been a member for 10 years. Apparently it was around 20% of the possible 500 voting members that actually voted for the resolution.

https://x.com/drsaraebrown/status/1962611572762910940?s=61&t=_cKTNp_TyAyzDViEOCJDFQ]]

https://x.com/drsaraebrown/status/1962611572762910940?s=61&t=_cKTNp_TyAyzDViEOCJDFQ%5D%5D

Everexpanding · 01/09/2025 23:57

@CaramelPecan @Lolapusht just to be clear are you denying a genocide is taking place? Do you think Israel is justified in all its actions, targetting civilian infrastructure? Killing close to two hundred journalist? Killing 63,000 Palestinians, with approximately 86% of those being civilians? Restricting aid and medical supplies ? Starving a civilian population?

OP posts:
CaramelPecan · 02/09/2025 00:30

Lolapusht · 01/09/2025 23:50

Commentary from a member of the IAGS who didn’t vote for the resolution. She’s been a member for 10 years. Apparently it was around 20% of the possible 500 voting members that actually voted for the resolution.

https://x.com/drsaraebrown/status/1962611572762910940?s=61&t=_cKTNp_TyAyzDViEOCJDFQ]]

Well that’s unsurprising.

Eighty-six per cent of those who voted in the 500-member International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) supported the motion.

So 140 out of 500 voted and 120 out of 500 agreed. I’d be interested to know how many qualified professionals that number was comprised of.

What a very misleading OP.

The overwhelming majority of members didn’t vote at all.

TooBigForMyBoots · 02/09/2025 00:49

It is genocide.

Netenyahu's government, along with the IDF is committing war crimes to exterminate the population of Gaza.

Shame on them!

PrawnAgain · 02/09/2025 00:49

CaramelPecan · 01/09/2025 18:38

In that case, did Hamas not know that?

They obviously had first hand knowledge of Israel’s previous actions in Gaza?

Why on earth did they carry out the atrocities of Oct 7th then?

Are you saying they wanted a genocide in Gaza?

I think Hamas knew exactly how Isreal were going to retaliate. However this doesn't excuse Isreal's actions.

Many supporters of Isreal's genocide will argue that Hamas did it deliberately to make Isreal a pariah state which I think might well be true. However if this is true then surely the smart thing to do would be to defy their expectations rather than just dancing to Hamas's tune ....

The fact that Hamas may have planned this is not a defence. In fact it's actually another reason for Isreal to stop.

CaramelPecan · 02/09/2025 00:51

Everexpanding · 01/09/2025 23:57

@CaramelPecan @Lolapusht just to be clear are you denying a genocide is taking place? Do you think Israel is justified in all its actions, targetting civilian infrastructure? Killing close to two hundred journalist? Killing 63,000 Palestinians, with approximately 86% of those being civilians? Restricting aid and medical supplies ? Starving a civilian population?

Just to be clear, I think a war is taking place which Israel is justified in defending.

Civilian infrastructure is a legitimate military target if used for military activities. From the Red Cross:

The laws of war prohibit direct attacks on civilian objects, like schools. They also prohibit direct attacks against hospitals and medical staff, which are specially protected under IHL. That said, a hospital or school may become a legitimate military target if it contributes to specific military operations of the enemy and if its destruction offers a definite military advantage for the attacking side.
^^
If there is any doubt, they cannot be attacked. Hospitals only lose their protection in certain circumstances - for example if a hospital is being used as a base from which to launch an attack, as a weapons depot, or to hide healthy soldiers/fighters.

Despicably Hamas has done just that.

Terrorists posing as journalists yes. There seem to be a lot of journalists in Gaza.

Sadly civilian deaths happen in every war but I don’t believe 86% are civilians, no. Otherwise Israel wouldn’t even be trying to destroy Hamas would they?

I also don’t believe Israel is restricting aid, supplies or starving the population. I believe they have taken steps to try to stop Hamas using aid for its military purposes to continue the war, yes.

TooBigForMyBoots · 02/09/2025 00:56

Those are your beliefs and I can understand why you believe those things @CaramelPecan.

But they're beliefs, not reality.

CaramelPecan · 02/09/2025 00:56

PrawnAgain · 02/09/2025 00:49

I think Hamas knew exactly how Isreal were going to retaliate. However this doesn't excuse Isreal's actions.

Many supporters of Isreal's genocide will argue that Hamas did it deliberately to make Isreal a pariah state which I think might well be true. However if this is true then surely the smart thing to do would be to defy their expectations rather than just dancing to Hamas's tune ....

The fact that Hamas may have planned this is not a defence. In fact it's actually another reason for Isreal to stop.

Edited

What should Israel have done then to defy Hamas’ expectations?

Immediately remove the security blockade so they could do it again as they promised and ask Egypt nicely to remove theirs?

The whole point of Oct 7th was apparently because Israel was keeping Gazans in an open air prison (a pretty nice one in some parts), remember?

SharonEllis · 02/09/2025 07:59

Lolapusht · 01/09/2025 23:50

Commentary from a member of the IAGS who didn’t vote for the resolution. She’s been a member for 10 years. Apparently it was around 20% of the possible 500 voting members that actually voted for the resolution.

https://x.com/drsaraebrown/status/1962611572762910940?s=61&t=_cKTNp_TyAyzDViEOCJDFQ]]

Very interesting, thank you. She says the whole thing was concerning from process to the content of discussions.'Anyone who considers themself a genocide scholar should feel embarrassed by this vote.'
I note that Elliot Malin, who she is quote tweeting said 'it misstated the ICJ’s “plausibility” determination saying it was “plausible genocide,” which is not true. The ICJ said that Palestinians plausibly have rights to protection under the Genocide Convention. The President of the ICJ who wrote it clarified this at a later time. (It was also the correct determination).'
If this is true these people deserve no consideration as it shows they don't understand the relevant international law or process.

SharonEllis · 02/09/2025 08:01

Come on @Lolapusht and @CaramelPecan this is not a discussion. All you have to do is sign up for a position so we know which side you're on. That's all that matters!

Beachtastic · 02/09/2025 10:47

TooBigForMyBoots · 02/09/2025 00:56

Those are your beliefs and I can understand why you believe those things @CaramelPecan.

But they're beliefs, not reality.

So is the (vaguely collective) opinion of the so-called "world's top scholars."

Have you ever worked with senior academics? I'm guessing not, if you are so in awe of their pronouncement.

CaramelPecan · 02/09/2025 11:40

Beachtastic · 02/09/2025 10:47

So is the (vaguely collective) opinion of the so-called "world's top scholars."

Have you ever worked with senior academics? I'm guessing not, if you are so in awe of their pronouncement.

These ‘top scholars’ of genocide who include students, human rights activists, artists……

I‘m willing to wage a bet that the ‘top scholars’ of genocide were the ones who didn’t actually vote.

Beachtastic · 02/09/2025 11:43

CaramelPecan · 02/09/2025 11:40

These ‘top scholars’ of genocide who include students, human rights activists, artists……

I‘m willing to wage a bet that the ‘top scholars’ of genocide were the ones who didn’t actually vote.

Ah, there was me giving them the benefit of the doubt that they all have an illustrious academic career! (in which case, the term "ivory tower" was coined for a reason...)

TooBigForMyBoots · 02/09/2025 11:52

Shoot the messengers if you must. It doesn't change the reality of what Netenyahu is doing to Gazans.

SharonEllis · 02/09/2025 12:28

More detail on problems with the IAGS vote outlined here.

Its also clear that membership is wider than 'top academics' in the field. The first question is, why did only 20% vote and how robust was the evidence that informed what they were voting on.

www.timesofisrael.com/genocide-scholar-says-group-pushed-through-israel-condemnation-without-debate/

hkathy · 02/09/2025 12:43

CaramelPecan · 01/09/2025 19:50

Not an answer to my previous post though is it?

Why do you think Hamas planned and carried out the atrocities of Oct 7th when they knew what Israel’s response would be?

This thread sheds more light on the thinking behind this resolution.

x.com/Aizenberg55/status/1953457271695962316

Will they publish the professional qualification of the members who voted in favour, in the interests of transparency, as this is the membership criteria and anyone can join for $125 a year?

Become an IAGS Member
IAGS members are academic scholars, human rights activists, students, museum and memorial professionals, policymakers, educators, anthropologists, independent scholars, sociologists, artists, political scientists, economists, historians, international law scholars, psychologists, and literature and film scholars. IAGS was formed in 1994 and currently represents 600 members from all continents. We encourage anyone dealing with genocide in a scholarly or professional capacity to join.

It would be interesting to see which members who voted are qualified and have the relevant competence in international or criminal law procedure to make this pronouncement.

As a Jew, I feel like we need to stop for a minute and think.

I get it’s a bitter pill to swallow but listen to the dissenting Jewish voices outside your echo chamber. What’s happening in Gaza is not acceptable and should not be done in our name. Hamas or not.

Lolapusht · 02/09/2025 13:15

Everexpanding · 01/09/2025 23:57

@CaramelPecan @Lolapusht just to be clear are you denying a genocide is taking place? Do you think Israel is justified in all its actions, targetting civilian infrastructure? Killing close to two hundred journalist? Killing 63,000 Palestinians, with approximately 86% of those being civilians? Restricting aid and medical supplies ? Starving a civilian population?

Ignoring your emotive choice of words, I believe Israel is undertaking a military response to an act of war but isn’t committing a genocide. I’ve listened to calls organising the evacuation of civilians, I’ve seen the information given in advance of targeting terrorists, I’ve read about roof knocking (and seen Hamas etc deliberately gathering groups of children to the same roofs that Israel have just warned are about to be bombed). To me, none of that suggests a genocidal intention. Find me a situation where there has been a clear genocide and the aggressors have done similar things and I’ll look into, do some research, form an opinion and get back to you.

You need to define “all its actions” a bit better. All of its actions in this war? In general? In this war, do I agree with everything Israel has done? I do not. Do I think it’s justified? I don’t know. Was a massive response after Oct 7 justified? Absolutely. The equivalent would be Wales storming the border with England and killing roughly 15,000 people and kidnapping thousands more. What would you want the government to do? Not respond so we don’t play into the Welsh’s hands? Wars are horrific. The people not directly involved in them rarely know what horrors happen. I can’t imagine having to kill someone, never mind seeing the people I work with being blown up next to me. Thanks to the wonders of SM people are seeing images of these horrors but it seems like some of those people are only viewing images from one side (Like Ms Thunberg). How do you justify military aggression? What’s your metric? I think using a moral metric is trite as we all agree that killing is immoral. All killing, though? Is there ever a situation where killing someone is justified? I think the culture you grew up in will influence your answer. In the UK, we don’t have guns and it’s rare for someone to be killed so we have a very low threshold for killing. Cultures where killing is done publically and regularly are going to have a different threshold. If someone is coming for your children, are you going to do nothing because you don’t believe in killing? If killing the assailant is your only option, are you justified in taking their life?

The targeting of civilian infrastructure is permitted under IL when that infrastructure is used for military purposes. Have you seen the videos of Hamas/PIJ etc firing RPGs from houses & schools, weapons stores in mosques, tunnels entrances in children’s bedrooms or within hospital grounds? I have. I even saw the lovely Hamas chaps firing from inside a UN warehouse. They used the piles of undelivered aid as cover. When one side uses civilian infrastructure as part of their war campaign, they are the ones who have militarised that infrastructure. They have turned houses, mosques, hospitals into military targets. They use Israel’s actions against them. They know the power of having civilians between them and the IDF. Hamas basically forbid people from evacuating areas the IDF have warned they’re going into. Any consideration of the complete lack of military uniforms in all the footage of Gazans? Did you watch any of the hostage release fiascos? Wonder where all those soldiers mysteriously materialised from? They seem to be good at showing off how many soldiers they have when they know the IDF won’t fire at them.

Are all the journalists that have been killed actual journalists? I’ve seen many who have very close ties with Hamas and are effectively Hamas spokespeople. I’ve also seen plenty who took part in the Oct 7 attacks. Are you counting them in your numbers? I’ve seen (more!) videos of “journalists” firing rockets at IDF targets then running and grabbing a press vest off one of the people they were standing with and putting it on. He participated in military action and then popped on a vest to show his neutrality and stop himself being retaliated against. Also, how can we have an urgent need to get journalists into Gaza to do some proper reporting but there seems to be hundreds if not thousands of Gazan journalists currently reporting and being targeted by the IDF? They’re either reliable and telling the truth in which case we don’t need independent journalists or we can’t rely on what they say and they’re not really journalists. Going back to the hostage releases, there were plenty of Hamas guys filming and directing everything. Would you considered them legitimate targets? Oh I did see one Gazan journalist who post against Hamas post an apology for his anti-Hamas rhetoric & promise not to do it again. He’d apparently been taken away and tortured for his efforts.

Not getting into the numbers here as there’s little point. Are you going to bring up the Lancet 130k number?

Restricting aid I don’t agree with, but I know that goods are used to make weapons/further Hamas aims etc so I can see why it’s done. You’ll mention limiting formula and I’ll say there’s formula in Gaza and I’ve seen pallets of baby food sitting at UN sites. You expect a country to provide medical supplies to the people trying to kill them? Again, find me the war where one side is meant to provide everything to the other side and I’ll look into it. Hamas could get all of this aid into the country tomorrow by releasing the hostages and surrendering. Critically ill people have left Gaza for treatment. If you are in charge of a population and know your people are dying because of what you are doing, what would you do about that?

There is not starvation in Gaza, but there is enough food if it were equally distributed. Restaurants have been open throughout the war. Eid celebrations have been particularly eye opening but you may have missed them as I think they tended to be posted in different places to the normal pro-Palestine places. Is there suffering and horrific conditions and shortages of the basics people need to live? Absolutely. No-one should have to endure those conditions. If a people can’t do anything about it then the international community should jump in to sort it out. UNRWA has been in Gaza for decades. Gaza has more UN employees than the rest of the world has. The aid distribution systems should have been in place. Why are they not getting aid to where it needs to be. Surely their first priority should be getting aid out. I get they don’t’ agree with GHF but there is an immediate way to get aid out to those Gazans who are suffering. Why are they not doing it? The horrific pictures that have been released show individuals with underlying medical conditions but they’re being used to suggest that everyone in Gaza is malnourished to the same extent. That is helping no-one as it isn’t true. Why is that being done? Why are we being shown these pictures with the narrative that Israel is starving Gaza? The obvious response is “OMG! Israel are deliberately trying to kill those people”. It would take about 5 minutes of time to disprove that. Why don’t people do that? How many people think Gaza was an open-air prison/concentration camp and don’t know about the 5* hotels/luxury car dealership/gold quarter/phone shops/bridal boutiques/shopping malls/universities etc? What are we told and what do we see? What reason would someone have for telling a particular narrative? Hamas is deliberately starving its civilian population. How many obese fighters have you seen? Why are their pictures not plastered across the world’s press?

Instead of concentrating on Israel, how about all the world leaders started putting pressure on Qatar and get them to do something about Hamas? It can be done because the US mysteriously got a hostage released after a week chat with the Qataris. Get the UN to sort their house out and deliver the aid they have. Make the Arab countries in the area get more involved than publicly criticising Israel while privately thanking them for dealing with Iran et al. Make Egypt open their blooming border to women and children. Get them out of there and let Israel and Hamas sort it out without more civilians getting needlessly killed. If Israel won’t leave afterwards then make them. Leaving the solution to the current parties is useless. One side has sworn to destroy the other and the other side is trying not to get killed. They’re not going to sit down and thrash out a neat little plan.

hkathy · 02/09/2025 13:41

Lolapusht · 02/09/2025 13:15

Ignoring your emotive choice of words, I believe Israel is undertaking a military response to an act of war but isn’t committing a genocide. I’ve listened to calls organising the evacuation of civilians, I’ve seen the information given in advance of targeting terrorists, I’ve read about roof knocking (and seen Hamas etc deliberately gathering groups of children to the same roofs that Israel have just warned are about to be bombed). To me, none of that suggests a genocidal intention. Find me a situation where there has been a clear genocide and the aggressors have done similar things and I’ll look into, do some research, form an opinion and get back to you.

You need to define “all its actions” a bit better. All of its actions in this war? In general? In this war, do I agree with everything Israel has done? I do not. Do I think it’s justified? I don’t know. Was a massive response after Oct 7 justified? Absolutely. The equivalent would be Wales storming the border with England and killing roughly 15,000 people and kidnapping thousands more. What would you want the government to do? Not respond so we don’t play into the Welsh’s hands? Wars are horrific. The people not directly involved in them rarely know what horrors happen. I can’t imagine having to kill someone, never mind seeing the people I work with being blown up next to me. Thanks to the wonders of SM people are seeing images of these horrors but it seems like some of those people are only viewing images from one side (Like Ms Thunberg). How do you justify military aggression? What’s your metric? I think using a moral metric is trite as we all agree that killing is immoral. All killing, though? Is there ever a situation where killing someone is justified? I think the culture you grew up in will influence your answer. In the UK, we don’t have guns and it’s rare for someone to be killed so we have a very low threshold for killing. Cultures where killing is done publically and regularly are going to have a different threshold. If someone is coming for your children, are you going to do nothing because you don’t believe in killing? If killing the assailant is your only option, are you justified in taking their life?

The targeting of civilian infrastructure is permitted under IL when that infrastructure is used for military purposes. Have you seen the videos of Hamas/PIJ etc firing RPGs from houses & schools, weapons stores in mosques, tunnels entrances in children’s bedrooms or within hospital grounds? I have. I even saw the lovely Hamas chaps firing from inside a UN warehouse. They used the piles of undelivered aid as cover. When one side uses civilian infrastructure as part of their war campaign, they are the ones who have militarised that infrastructure. They have turned houses, mosques, hospitals into military targets. They use Israel’s actions against them. They know the power of having civilians between them and the IDF. Hamas basically forbid people from evacuating areas the IDF have warned they’re going into. Any consideration of the complete lack of military uniforms in all the footage of Gazans? Did you watch any of the hostage release fiascos? Wonder where all those soldiers mysteriously materialised from? They seem to be good at showing off how many soldiers they have when they know the IDF won’t fire at them.

Are all the journalists that have been killed actual journalists? I’ve seen many who have very close ties with Hamas and are effectively Hamas spokespeople. I’ve also seen plenty who took part in the Oct 7 attacks. Are you counting them in your numbers? I’ve seen (more!) videos of “journalists” firing rockets at IDF targets then running and grabbing a press vest off one of the people they were standing with and putting it on. He participated in military action and then popped on a vest to show his neutrality and stop himself being retaliated against. Also, how can we have an urgent need to get journalists into Gaza to do some proper reporting but there seems to be hundreds if not thousands of Gazan journalists currently reporting and being targeted by the IDF? They’re either reliable and telling the truth in which case we don’t need independent journalists or we can’t rely on what they say and they’re not really journalists. Going back to the hostage releases, there were plenty of Hamas guys filming and directing everything. Would you considered them legitimate targets? Oh I did see one Gazan journalist who post against Hamas post an apology for his anti-Hamas rhetoric & promise not to do it again. He’d apparently been taken away and tortured for his efforts.

Not getting into the numbers here as there’s little point. Are you going to bring up the Lancet 130k number?

Restricting aid I don’t agree with, but I know that goods are used to make weapons/further Hamas aims etc so I can see why it’s done. You’ll mention limiting formula and I’ll say there’s formula in Gaza and I’ve seen pallets of baby food sitting at UN sites. You expect a country to provide medical supplies to the people trying to kill them? Again, find me the war where one side is meant to provide everything to the other side and I’ll look into it. Hamas could get all of this aid into the country tomorrow by releasing the hostages and surrendering. Critically ill people have left Gaza for treatment. If you are in charge of a population and know your people are dying because of what you are doing, what would you do about that?

There is not starvation in Gaza, but there is enough food if it were equally distributed. Restaurants have been open throughout the war. Eid celebrations have been particularly eye opening but you may have missed them as I think they tended to be posted in different places to the normal pro-Palestine places. Is there suffering and horrific conditions and shortages of the basics people need to live? Absolutely. No-one should have to endure those conditions. If a people can’t do anything about it then the international community should jump in to sort it out. UNRWA has been in Gaza for decades. Gaza has more UN employees than the rest of the world has. The aid distribution systems should have been in place. Why are they not getting aid to where it needs to be. Surely their first priority should be getting aid out. I get they don’t’ agree with GHF but there is an immediate way to get aid out to those Gazans who are suffering. Why are they not doing it? The horrific pictures that have been released show individuals with underlying medical conditions but they’re being used to suggest that everyone in Gaza is malnourished to the same extent. That is helping no-one as it isn’t true. Why is that being done? Why are we being shown these pictures with the narrative that Israel is starving Gaza? The obvious response is “OMG! Israel are deliberately trying to kill those people”. It would take about 5 minutes of time to disprove that. Why don’t people do that? How many people think Gaza was an open-air prison/concentration camp and don’t know about the 5* hotels/luxury car dealership/gold quarter/phone shops/bridal boutiques/shopping malls/universities etc? What are we told and what do we see? What reason would someone have for telling a particular narrative? Hamas is deliberately starving its civilian population. How many obese fighters have you seen? Why are their pictures not plastered across the world’s press?

Instead of concentrating on Israel, how about all the world leaders started putting pressure on Qatar and get them to do something about Hamas? It can be done because the US mysteriously got a hostage released after a week chat with the Qataris. Get the UN to sort their house out and deliver the aid they have. Make the Arab countries in the area get more involved than publicly criticising Israel while privately thanking them for dealing with Iran et al. Make Egypt open their blooming border to women and children. Get them out of there and let Israel and Hamas sort it out without more civilians getting needlessly killed. If Israel won’t leave afterwards then make them. Leaving the solution to the current parties is useless. One side has sworn to destroy the other and the other side is trying not to get killed. They’re not going to sit down and thrash out a neat little plan.

You could have just said ‘yes’

SharonEllis · 02/09/2025 13:48

Lolapusht · 02/09/2025 13:15

Ignoring your emotive choice of words, I believe Israel is undertaking a military response to an act of war but isn’t committing a genocide. I’ve listened to calls organising the evacuation of civilians, I’ve seen the information given in advance of targeting terrorists, I’ve read about roof knocking (and seen Hamas etc deliberately gathering groups of children to the same roofs that Israel have just warned are about to be bombed). To me, none of that suggests a genocidal intention. Find me a situation where there has been a clear genocide and the aggressors have done similar things and I’ll look into, do some research, form an opinion and get back to you.

You need to define “all its actions” a bit better. All of its actions in this war? In general? In this war, do I agree with everything Israel has done? I do not. Do I think it’s justified? I don’t know. Was a massive response after Oct 7 justified? Absolutely. The equivalent would be Wales storming the border with England and killing roughly 15,000 people and kidnapping thousands more. What would you want the government to do? Not respond so we don’t play into the Welsh’s hands? Wars are horrific. The people not directly involved in them rarely know what horrors happen. I can’t imagine having to kill someone, never mind seeing the people I work with being blown up next to me. Thanks to the wonders of SM people are seeing images of these horrors but it seems like some of those people are only viewing images from one side (Like Ms Thunberg). How do you justify military aggression? What’s your metric? I think using a moral metric is trite as we all agree that killing is immoral. All killing, though? Is there ever a situation where killing someone is justified? I think the culture you grew up in will influence your answer. In the UK, we don’t have guns and it’s rare for someone to be killed so we have a very low threshold for killing. Cultures where killing is done publically and regularly are going to have a different threshold. If someone is coming for your children, are you going to do nothing because you don’t believe in killing? If killing the assailant is your only option, are you justified in taking their life?

The targeting of civilian infrastructure is permitted under IL when that infrastructure is used for military purposes. Have you seen the videos of Hamas/PIJ etc firing RPGs from houses & schools, weapons stores in mosques, tunnels entrances in children’s bedrooms or within hospital grounds? I have. I even saw the lovely Hamas chaps firing from inside a UN warehouse. They used the piles of undelivered aid as cover. When one side uses civilian infrastructure as part of their war campaign, they are the ones who have militarised that infrastructure. They have turned houses, mosques, hospitals into military targets. They use Israel’s actions against them. They know the power of having civilians between them and the IDF. Hamas basically forbid people from evacuating areas the IDF have warned they’re going into. Any consideration of the complete lack of military uniforms in all the footage of Gazans? Did you watch any of the hostage release fiascos? Wonder where all those soldiers mysteriously materialised from? They seem to be good at showing off how many soldiers they have when they know the IDF won’t fire at them.

Are all the journalists that have been killed actual journalists? I’ve seen many who have very close ties with Hamas and are effectively Hamas spokespeople. I’ve also seen plenty who took part in the Oct 7 attacks. Are you counting them in your numbers? I’ve seen (more!) videos of “journalists” firing rockets at IDF targets then running and grabbing a press vest off one of the people they were standing with and putting it on. He participated in military action and then popped on a vest to show his neutrality and stop himself being retaliated against. Also, how can we have an urgent need to get journalists into Gaza to do some proper reporting but there seems to be hundreds if not thousands of Gazan journalists currently reporting and being targeted by the IDF? They’re either reliable and telling the truth in which case we don’t need independent journalists or we can’t rely on what they say and they’re not really journalists. Going back to the hostage releases, there were plenty of Hamas guys filming and directing everything. Would you considered them legitimate targets? Oh I did see one Gazan journalist who post against Hamas post an apology for his anti-Hamas rhetoric & promise not to do it again. He’d apparently been taken away and tortured for his efforts.

Not getting into the numbers here as there’s little point. Are you going to bring up the Lancet 130k number?

Restricting aid I don’t agree with, but I know that goods are used to make weapons/further Hamas aims etc so I can see why it’s done. You’ll mention limiting formula and I’ll say there’s formula in Gaza and I’ve seen pallets of baby food sitting at UN sites. You expect a country to provide medical supplies to the people trying to kill them? Again, find me the war where one side is meant to provide everything to the other side and I’ll look into it. Hamas could get all of this aid into the country tomorrow by releasing the hostages and surrendering. Critically ill people have left Gaza for treatment. If you are in charge of a population and know your people are dying because of what you are doing, what would you do about that?

There is not starvation in Gaza, but there is enough food if it were equally distributed. Restaurants have been open throughout the war. Eid celebrations have been particularly eye opening but you may have missed them as I think they tended to be posted in different places to the normal pro-Palestine places. Is there suffering and horrific conditions and shortages of the basics people need to live? Absolutely. No-one should have to endure those conditions. If a people can’t do anything about it then the international community should jump in to sort it out. UNRWA has been in Gaza for decades. Gaza has more UN employees than the rest of the world has. The aid distribution systems should have been in place. Why are they not getting aid to where it needs to be. Surely their first priority should be getting aid out. I get they don’t’ agree with GHF but there is an immediate way to get aid out to those Gazans who are suffering. Why are they not doing it? The horrific pictures that have been released show individuals with underlying medical conditions but they’re being used to suggest that everyone in Gaza is malnourished to the same extent. That is helping no-one as it isn’t true. Why is that being done? Why are we being shown these pictures with the narrative that Israel is starving Gaza? The obvious response is “OMG! Israel are deliberately trying to kill those people”. It would take about 5 minutes of time to disprove that. Why don’t people do that? How many people think Gaza was an open-air prison/concentration camp and don’t know about the 5* hotels/luxury car dealership/gold quarter/phone shops/bridal boutiques/shopping malls/universities etc? What are we told and what do we see? What reason would someone have for telling a particular narrative? Hamas is deliberately starving its civilian population. How many obese fighters have you seen? Why are their pictures not plastered across the world’s press?

Instead of concentrating on Israel, how about all the world leaders started putting pressure on Qatar and get them to do something about Hamas? It can be done because the US mysteriously got a hostage released after a week chat with the Qataris. Get the UN to sort their house out and deliver the aid they have. Make the Arab countries in the area get more involved than publicly criticising Israel while privately thanking them for dealing with Iran et al. Make Egypt open their blooming border to women and children. Get them out of there and let Israel and Hamas sort it out without more civilians getting needlessly killed. If Israel won’t leave afterwards then make them. Leaving the solution to the current parties is useless. One side has sworn to destroy the other and the other side is trying not to get killed. They’re not going to sit down and thrash out a neat little plan.

Thank you for such a thoughtful post. Its rare for someone on here to really think about the reality of this war.

hkathy · 02/09/2025 13:48

@LolapushtI think at the end of day, and I see this all the time, it’s going to be impossible to change your opinion. Too much is in there for things to change. We believe the IDF is targeting children. We believe war crimes are going on.

Emily Maitliss and Jon Sopel, both Jews, did a really good episode where they had to ‘undo’ some of the thinking that was ingrained from the start.

Lolapusht · 02/09/2025 13:54

On journalists killed in Gaza

https://x.com/efischberger/status/1962572394050072852?s=61&t=_cKTNp_TyAyzDViEOCJDFQ

hkathy · 02/09/2025 13:55

@Lolapushtand btw your journalist argument just doesn’t hold. Independent journalists should be allowed in.

Beachtastic · 02/09/2025 14:19

Lolapusht · 02/09/2025 13:15

Ignoring your emotive choice of words, I believe Israel is undertaking a military response to an act of war but isn’t committing a genocide. I’ve listened to calls organising the evacuation of civilians, I’ve seen the information given in advance of targeting terrorists, I’ve read about roof knocking (and seen Hamas etc deliberately gathering groups of children to the same roofs that Israel have just warned are about to be bombed). To me, none of that suggests a genocidal intention. Find me a situation where there has been a clear genocide and the aggressors have done similar things and I’ll look into, do some research, form an opinion and get back to you.

You need to define “all its actions” a bit better. All of its actions in this war? In general? In this war, do I agree with everything Israel has done? I do not. Do I think it’s justified? I don’t know. Was a massive response after Oct 7 justified? Absolutely. The equivalent would be Wales storming the border with England and killing roughly 15,000 people and kidnapping thousands more. What would you want the government to do? Not respond so we don’t play into the Welsh’s hands? Wars are horrific. The people not directly involved in them rarely know what horrors happen. I can’t imagine having to kill someone, never mind seeing the people I work with being blown up next to me. Thanks to the wonders of SM people are seeing images of these horrors but it seems like some of those people are only viewing images from one side (Like Ms Thunberg). How do you justify military aggression? What’s your metric? I think using a moral metric is trite as we all agree that killing is immoral. All killing, though? Is there ever a situation where killing someone is justified? I think the culture you grew up in will influence your answer. In the UK, we don’t have guns and it’s rare for someone to be killed so we have a very low threshold for killing. Cultures where killing is done publically and regularly are going to have a different threshold. If someone is coming for your children, are you going to do nothing because you don’t believe in killing? If killing the assailant is your only option, are you justified in taking their life?

The targeting of civilian infrastructure is permitted under IL when that infrastructure is used for military purposes. Have you seen the videos of Hamas/PIJ etc firing RPGs from houses & schools, weapons stores in mosques, tunnels entrances in children’s bedrooms or within hospital grounds? I have. I even saw the lovely Hamas chaps firing from inside a UN warehouse. They used the piles of undelivered aid as cover. When one side uses civilian infrastructure as part of their war campaign, they are the ones who have militarised that infrastructure. They have turned houses, mosques, hospitals into military targets. They use Israel’s actions against them. They know the power of having civilians between them and the IDF. Hamas basically forbid people from evacuating areas the IDF have warned they’re going into. Any consideration of the complete lack of military uniforms in all the footage of Gazans? Did you watch any of the hostage release fiascos? Wonder where all those soldiers mysteriously materialised from? They seem to be good at showing off how many soldiers they have when they know the IDF won’t fire at them.

Are all the journalists that have been killed actual journalists? I’ve seen many who have very close ties with Hamas and are effectively Hamas spokespeople. I’ve also seen plenty who took part in the Oct 7 attacks. Are you counting them in your numbers? I’ve seen (more!) videos of “journalists” firing rockets at IDF targets then running and grabbing a press vest off one of the people they were standing with and putting it on. He participated in military action and then popped on a vest to show his neutrality and stop himself being retaliated against. Also, how can we have an urgent need to get journalists into Gaza to do some proper reporting but there seems to be hundreds if not thousands of Gazan journalists currently reporting and being targeted by the IDF? They’re either reliable and telling the truth in which case we don’t need independent journalists or we can’t rely on what they say and they’re not really journalists. Going back to the hostage releases, there were plenty of Hamas guys filming and directing everything. Would you considered them legitimate targets? Oh I did see one Gazan journalist who post against Hamas post an apology for his anti-Hamas rhetoric & promise not to do it again. He’d apparently been taken away and tortured for his efforts.

Not getting into the numbers here as there’s little point. Are you going to bring up the Lancet 130k number?

Restricting aid I don’t agree with, but I know that goods are used to make weapons/further Hamas aims etc so I can see why it’s done. You’ll mention limiting formula and I’ll say there’s formula in Gaza and I’ve seen pallets of baby food sitting at UN sites. You expect a country to provide medical supplies to the people trying to kill them? Again, find me the war where one side is meant to provide everything to the other side and I’ll look into it. Hamas could get all of this aid into the country tomorrow by releasing the hostages and surrendering. Critically ill people have left Gaza for treatment. If you are in charge of a population and know your people are dying because of what you are doing, what would you do about that?

There is not starvation in Gaza, but there is enough food if it were equally distributed. Restaurants have been open throughout the war. Eid celebrations have been particularly eye opening but you may have missed them as I think they tended to be posted in different places to the normal pro-Palestine places. Is there suffering and horrific conditions and shortages of the basics people need to live? Absolutely. No-one should have to endure those conditions. If a people can’t do anything about it then the international community should jump in to sort it out. UNRWA has been in Gaza for decades. Gaza has more UN employees than the rest of the world has. The aid distribution systems should have been in place. Why are they not getting aid to where it needs to be. Surely their first priority should be getting aid out. I get they don’t’ agree with GHF but there is an immediate way to get aid out to those Gazans who are suffering. Why are they not doing it? The horrific pictures that have been released show individuals with underlying medical conditions but they’re being used to suggest that everyone in Gaza is malnourished to the same extent. That is helping no-one as it isn’t true. Why is that being done? Why are we being shown these pictures with the narrative that Israel is starving Gaza? The obvious response is “OMG! Israel are deliberately trying to kill those people”. It would take about 5 minutes of time to disprove that. Why don’t people do that? How many people think Gaza was an open-air prison/concentration camp and don’t know about the 5* hotels/luxury car dealership/gold quarter/phone shops/bridal boutiques/shopping malls/universities etc? What are we told and what do we see? What reason would someone have for telling a particular narrative? Hamas is deliberately starving its civilian population. How many obese fighters have you seen? Why are their pictures not plastered across the world’s press?

Instead of concentrating on Israel, how about all the world leaders started putting pressure on Qatar and get them to do something about Hamas? It can be done because the US mysteriously got a hostage released after a week chat with the Qataris. Get the UN to sort their house out and deliver the aid they have. Make the Arab countries in the area get more involved than publicly criticising Israel while privately thanking them for dealing with Iran et al. Make Egypt open their blooming border to women and children. Get them out of there and let Israel and Hamas sort it out without more civilians getting needlessly killed. If Israel won’t leave afterwards then make them. Leaving the solution to the current parties is useless. One side has sworn to destroy the other and the other side is trying not to get killed. They’re not going to sit down and thrash out a neat little plan.

Thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to lay this out so clearly. Of course it will fall on deaf ears here ("You could have just said 'yes'" 🤡), since it's not just a list of right-on soundbites, but I wish it could be pinned somehow as a reference point on this forum. It is so hard to know where to begin when answering superficial, emotive demands to know why "pro-Israelis" support genocide and the gleeful murder of children. Doing so requires such a high level of patience and detail, all knowing it will be met with scorn, that I am not sure I've seen the question addressed so comprehensively.

Lolapusht · 02/09/2025 14:20

hkathy · 02/09/2025 13:41

You could have just said ‘yes’

Yes I could have, but that would to do a massive disservice to all those people involved. Do you think it’s such a simple situation that yes or no suffices?

I don’t.

Beachtastic · 02/09/2025 14:25

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