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Conflict in the Middle East

Israel committing genocide in Gaza, world’s top scholars on the crime say

681 replies

Everexpanding · 01/09/2025 17:15

An overwhelming majority of members of the world’s leading genocide scholars’ association have backed a resolution stating that Israel’s actions in Gaza meet the legal definition of the crime.
Eighty-six per cent of those who voted in the 500-member International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) supported the motion. The resolution states that “Israel’s policies and actions in Gaza meet the legal definition of genocide in article II of the United Nations convention for the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide (1948).”

www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/01/israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-worlds-top-scholars-on-the-say

Gaza | The Guardian

Latest news, sport, business, comment, analysis and reviews from the Guardian, the world's leading liberal voice

https://www.theguardian.com/world/gaza

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Hoppinggreen · 02/09/2025 17:00

Lunalara · 01/09/2025 19:19

I wonder whether there are still people who will say that these institutions are lying.

Some will probably try to claim this as Anti semitism
UN is supposedly Anti Semitic, UNICEF Anti Semitic, DwB Antisemitic .
In fact anyone who does not like Israels actions in Gaza is often labelled Anti Semitic by some.
Its possible to deplore Hamas, totally condemn what happened on October 7th AND believe there is a genocide being peretrated in Gaza

Hoppinggreen · 02/09/2025 17:01

Everexpanding · 01/09/2025 23:57

@CaramelPecan @Lolapusht just to be clear are you denying a genocide is taking place? Do you think Israel is justified in all its actions, targetting civilian infrastructure? Killing close to two hundred journalist? Killing 63,000 Palestinians, with approximately 86% of those being civilians? Restricting aid and medical supplies ? Starving a civilian population?

All the fault of Hamas I am sure according to some

Zonder · 02/09/2025 17:02

hkathy · 02/09/2025 16:31

‘Forewarning to leave’ means 2.2 million people have been displaced and are living in tents. There is talk of a gaza humanitarian geographical area where they will be housed. This is called ethnic cleansing. It is one of the things that happens as part of a genocide.

I admire you as a Jew being able to express this. It must be very hard.

cupfinalchaos · 02/09/2025 17:12

Everexpanding · 01/09/2025 23:57

@CaramelPecan @Lolapusht just to be clear are you denying a genocide is taking place? Do you think Israel is justified in all its actions, targetting civilian infrastructure? Killing close to two hundred journalist? Killing 63,000 Palestinians, with approximately 86% of those being civilians? Restricting aid and medical supplies ? Starving a civilian population?

Can you give me another example of a country expected to feed the country it is at war with?

Rallentanda · 02/09/2025 17:13

I’m fascinated by the psychology of the people who see the images from Gaza every day, and tie themselves in knots on here and presumably elsewhere online in order to cast doubt, deny, insult our intelligence really. Testimonies from agency after agency, surgeons, reporters (those still alive), aid workers (those still alive), military experts…all must be discredited and their words denied.

i think there’s some darkness ahead for those people. Humans can’t keep this up forever.

factor50fan · 02/09/2025 17:17

hkathy · 02/09/2025 16:31

‘Forewarning to leave’ means 2.2 million people have been displaced and are living in tents. There is talk of a gaza humanitarian geographical area where they will be housed. This is called ethnic cleansing. It is one of the things that happens as part of a genocide.

So they should have not been warned to move but left in the conflict zones to die?

Or Israel should not have had a military response and let its enemies grow in confidence, boldness and strength until they do defeat Israel, (which will result in their destruction), as nearly happened in the Egyptian ./ Syrian war against Israel?

And what is Hamas's responsibility for all of this? What action should it have taken to not start a war/ to stop the war and to protect its citizens in the war?

And what responsibility does Hamas have in the living conditions of its people? Are you aware that it was Hamas that forcibly removed most o the citizens from Rafah? So that it could booby trap all the houses and kill IDF soldiers? That forced the demolition of those houses.

You are creating a false narrative by removing Hamas from the narrative. (and all the other ME parties attacking or aiding the attacks on Israel.

Martymcfly24 · 02/09/2025 17:29

cupfinalchaos · 02/09/2025 17:12

Can you give me another example of a country expected to feed the country it is at war with?

Why would they need to?

No one has expects Israel to feed Gaza just please stop preventing other countries aid from getting in ( which is a crime against humanity fyi)

factor50fan · 02/09/2025 17:30

Rallentanda · 02/09/2025 17:13

I’m fascinated by the psychology of the people who see the images from Gaza every day, and tie themselves in knots on here and presumably elsewhere online in order to cast doubt, deny, insult our intelligence really. Testimonies from agency after agency, surgeons, reporters (those still alive), aid workers (those still alive), military experts…all must be discredited and their words denied.

i think there’s some darkness ahead for those people. Humans can’t keep this up forever.

I don't think anyone is denying how awful things are for people in Gaza. What they are doing is trying to apportion blame to the right parties by looking at what has actually been happening and the full parties involved in this.

I am furious about the suffering of the Gazans, but I I firmly blame Hamas (and Iran and allies) for the suffering of the Gazan people, both in starting the war and in how they have behaved throughout the war. .

I do see darkness, as you put it, in those narratives seeking to portray Israel, a democratic state defending itself from dictators and terrorists, as pure evil, for evil's sake. These people, I think, simply don't think Israel should exist and therefore nothing done against Israel, no matte r how barbaric, is related to Israel's response, and nothing Israel can do to defend itself is justified, as they see the destruction of Israel as a good thing, not an act of evil. And that is why they omit Hamas and Iran and Hezbollah from the narrative of what is happening.

Martymcfly24 · 02/09/2025 17:32

factor50fan · 02/09/2025 17:30

I don't think anyone is denying how awful things are for people in Gaza. What they are doing is trying to apportion blame to the right parties by looking at what has actually been happening and the full parties involved in this.

I am furious about the suffering of the Gazans, but I I firmly blame Hamas (and Iran and allies) for the suffering of the Gazan people, both in starting the war and in how they have behaved throughout the war. .

I do see darkness, as you put it, in those narratives seeking to portray Israel, a democratic state defending itself from dictators and terrorists, as pure evil, for evil's sake. These people, I think, simply don't think Israel should exist and therefore nothing done against Israel, no matte r how barbaric, is related to Israel's response, and nothing Israel can do to defend itself is justified, as they see the destruction of Israel as a good thing, not an act of evil. And that is why they omit Hamas and Iran and Hezbollah from the narrative of what is happening.

Edited

Do you think Israel should take any responsibility for the way they have treated Palestinians in Gaza over the past 20 years and they way Palestinians in the West Bank are currently being treated?

Rallentanda · 02/09/2025 17:37

factor50fan · 02/09/2025 17:30

I don't think anyone is denying how awful things are for people in Gaza. What they are doing is trying to apportion blame to the right parties by looking at what has actually been happening and the full parties involved in this.

I am furious about the suffering of the Gazans, but I I firmly blame Hamas (and Iran and allies) for the suffering of the Gazan people, both in starting the war and in how they have behaved throughout the war. .

I do see darkness, as you put it, in those narratives seeking to portray Israel, a democratic state defending itself from dictators and terrorists, as pure evil, for evil's sake. These people, I think, simply don't think Israel should exist and therefore nothing done against Israel, no matte r how barbaric, is related to Israel's response, and nothing Israel can do to defend itself is justified, as they see the destruction of Israel as a good thing, not an act of evil. And that is why they omit Hamas and Iran and Hezbollah from the narrative of what is happening.

Edited

Nobody normal supports Hamas, you know. We aren’t talking about this and saying, blimey, it’s a shame for Hamas that all this is happening.

We’ve been watching annd protesting against Israel pulverising a huge number of people, settlements, institutions, violently destroying a population. How anyone can required us to give Israel - the government, the military - the grace required to absolve themselves somehow: words fail me.

However they don’t fail the commenters on here, and I do think that’s a dark place for them to be, psychologically.

dairydebris · 02/09/2025 17:44

Rallentanda · 02/09/2025 17:13

I’m fascinated by the psychology of the people who see the images from Gaza every day, and tie themselves in knots on here and presumably elsewhere online in order to cast doubt, deny, insult our intelligence really. Testimonies from agency after agency, surgeons, reporters (those still alive), aid workers (those still alive), military experts…all must be discredited and their words denied.

i think there’s some darkness ahead for those people. Humans can’t keep this up forever.

I would suggest those people have studied war over the last few centuries and know what humans are capable of.

Humans have kept it up for the entirety of their history.

CaramelPecan · 02/09/2025 17:45

This is an opinion published before the IAGS resolution which debunks the evidence they’ve used to justify it.

I am a war scholar - there is no genocide in Gaza - opinion

I have reviewed their orders, watched their targeting process, and seen soldiers take real risks to avoid harming civilians. Nothing I have seen or studied resembles genocide or genocidal intent.

In his New York Times op-ed titled “I’m a Genocide Scholar. I Know It When I See It,” Omer Bartov accused Israel of committing genocide in Gaza. As a professor of genocide studies, he should know better. Genocide is not defined by a few comments taken out of context, by estimates of casualties or destruction, or by how war looks in headlines or on social media. It is defined by specific intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group in whole or in part. That is a high legal bar. Bartov did not meet it. He did not even try.

I am not a lawyer or a political activist. I am a war expert. I have led soldiers in combat. I have trained military units in urban warfarefor decades and studied and taught military history, strategy, and the laws of war for years. Since October 7, I have been to Gaza four times embedded with the IDF. I have interviewed the prime minister of Israel, the defense minister, the IDF chief of staff, Southern Command leadership, and dozens of commanders and soldiers on the front lines.

I have reviewed their orders, watched their targeting process, and seen soldiers take real risks to avoid harming civilians. Nothing I have seen or studied resembles genocide or genocidal intent.

Do Israeli leaders' statements prove genocidal intent?

Bartov claims that five statements by Israeli leaders prove genocidal intent. He begins with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s comment on October 7 that Hamas would “pay a huge price.” That is not a call for genocide. It is what any leader would say after the worst terrorist attack in the nation’s history. He also cites Netanyahu’s statements that Hamas would be destroyed and that civilians should evacuate combat zones. That is not evidence of a desire to destroy a people. It is what professional militaries do when fighting an enemy that hides among civilians.

Bartov presents Netanyahu’s reference to “remember Amalek” as a smoking gun. But this is a phrase from Jewish history and tradition. It is engraved at Israel’s Holocaust memorial, Yad Vashem, and also appears on the Holocaust memorial in The Hague. In both places, it serves as a warning to remain vigilant against threats, not as a call for mass killing.

He also highlights former defense minister Yoav Gallant’s use of the term “human animals” to describe Hamas fighters. That is not a war crime. After the slaughter, rape, and kidnapping of civilians on October 7, many would understand or even share that reaction.

Unable to find intent among those actually directing the war, Bartov turns to far-right politicians like Bezalel Smotrich and Nissim Vaturi. These individuals do not command troops, issue orders, or shape battlefield decisions. I have studied the actual orders. They focus on destroying Hamas, rescuing hostages, and protecting civilians whenever possible. Their rhetoric is irrelevant to the legal case.

Israel has taken extraordinary steps to limit civilian harm. It warns before attacks using text messages, phone calls, leaflets, and broadcasts. It opens safe corridors and pauses operations so civilians can leave combat areas. It tracks civilian presence down to the building level. I have seen missions delayed or canceled because children were nearby. I have seen Israeli troops come under fire and still be ordered not to shoot back because civilians might be harmed.

Israel has delivered more humanitarian aid to Gaza than any military in history has provided to an enemy population during wartime. More than 94,000 trucks carrying over 1.8 million tons of aid have entered the territory. Israel has supported hospitals, repaired water pipelines, increased access to clean water, and enabled over 36,000 patients to leave Gaza for treatment abroad.

The IDF has coordinated millions of vaccine doses, supplied fuel for hospitals and infrastructure, and facilitated the flow of food and medicine through the UN, aid groups, and private partners. The US–Israeli Gaza Humanitarian Foundation alone has delivered more than 82 million meals - one to two million a day - while weakening Hamas’s control over aid. This is not genocide. It is responsible and historic mid-war humanitarian policy.

Bartov cites death tolls from Hamas health authorities without question. He says 58,000 have been killed, including 17,000 children. But these numbers come from a terrorist organization. They mix civilians and fighters and count anyone under 18 as a child, even though Hamas uses teenagers and younger children as combatants. The figures are not independently verified and have been shown to contain false details, including names, ages, and sex. Civilian deaths are tragic, but in Gaza, they are also part of Hamas’s strategy.

No military operation is judged solely by body counts or destruction figures. If we used Bartov’s logic, every major war would be called genocide.

Two million civilians died in the Korean War, an average of 54,000 per month. The Iraq and Afghanistan wars killed hundreds of thousands. The fight against ISIS leveled multiple cities and killed tens of thousands. None of those wars were considered genocidal. Gaza is not either. War is evaluated based on the actions of commanders, the goals set by leaders, and how well the military follows the laws of war, not by statistics taken out of context.

War is hell. It is inhumane, destructive, and ugly. But it is not automatically a crime. Nations must not target civilians. They must follow the rules of distinction, proportionality, and take all possible care to avoid civilian harm. Israel is doing that. I have seen it.

In Rafah this summer, Israel spent weeks preparing evacuations. It opened new safe areas and waited until civilians had moved before striking Hamas targets. That operation killed Hamas’s top commander, recovered hostages, and kept civilian deaths very low. It was a clear example of Israel’s extraordinary intent and actions to protect civilians while targeting only Hamas, a part of the story ignored by those who reduce war to headlines and numbers.

What is happening in Gaza is tragic. But it is not genocide. And it is not illegal.

Genocide requires clear, provable intent to destroy a people through sustained, deliberate actions. That burden of proof has not been met. Bartov and others have not even tried.

Likewise, the laws of war do not prohibit war itself.

They require that military operations distinguish between combatants and noncombatants, that force be proportional to the objective, and that commanders take all feasible precautions to protect civilian life. I have watched the IDF do exactly that. I have seen restraint, humanitarian aid, and deliberate compliance with legal standards, often at tactical cost.

This is not a campaign of extermination. It is a war against Hamas, a terrorist army embedded in civilian areas by design.

The law matters. So does precision. And above all, truth matters.

John Spencer is the executive director of the Urban Warfare Institute. He is the coauthor of Understanding Urban Warfare^. Learn more at www.johnspenceronline.com. Substack: https://substack.com/@spencerguard^

www.jpost.com/opinion/article-862390

Urban warfare in Gaza: Evacuations, propaganda, and reality | The Jerusalem Post

The true threat to both Palestinians and Israelis is Hamas and its supporters in Iran, who persist in sustaining this violence at any cost.

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-826717

hkathy · 02/09/2025 17:47

Rallentanda · 02/09/2025 17:13

I’m fascinated by the psychology of the people who see the images from Gaza every day, and tie themselves in knots on here and presumably elsewhere online in order to cast doubt, deny, insult our intelligence really. Testimonies from agency after agency, surgeons, reporters (those still alive), aid workers (those still alive), military experts…all must be discredited and their words denied.

i think there’s some darkness ahead for those people. Humans can’t keep this up forever.

exactly this

hkathy · 02/09/2025 18:00

CaramelPecan · 02/09/2025 17:45

This is an opinion published before the IAGS resolution which debunks the evidence they’ve used to justify it.

I am a war scholar - there is no genocide in Gaza - opinion

I have reviewed their orders, watched their targeting process, and seen soldiers take real risks to avoid harming civilians. Nothing I have seen or studied resembles genocide or genocidal intent.

In his New York Times op-ed titled “I’m a Genocide Scholar. I Know It When I See It,” Omer Bartov accused Israel of committing genocide in Gaza. As a professor of genocide studies, he should know better. Genocide is not defined by a few comments taken out of context, by estimates of casualties or destruction, or by how war looks in headlines or on social media. It is defined by specific intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group in whole or in part. That is a high legal bar. Bartov did not meet it. He did not even try.

I am not a lawyer or a political activist. I am a war expert. I have led soldiers in combat. I have trained military units in urban warfarefor decades and studied and taught military history, strategy, and the laws of war for years. Since October 7, I have been to Gaza four times embedded with the IDF. I have interviewed the prime minister of Israel, the defense minister, the IDF chief of staff, Southern Command leadership, and dozens of commanders and soldiers on the front lines.

I have reviewed their orders, watched their targeting process, and seen soldiers take real risks to avoid harming civilians. Nothing I have seen or studied resembles genocide or genocidal intent.

Do Israeli leaders' statements prove genocidal intent?

Bartov claims that five statements by Israeli leaders prove genocidal intent. He begins with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s comment on October 7 that Hamas would “pay a huge price.” That is not a call for genocide. It is what any leader would say after the worst terrorist attack in the nation’s history. He also cites Netanyahu’s statements that Hamas would be destroyed and that civilians should evacuate combat zones. That is not evidence of a desire to destroy a people. It is what professional militaries do when fighting an enemy that hides among civilians.

Bartov presents Netanyahu’s reference to “remember Amalek” as a smoking gun. But this is a phrase from Jewish history and tradition. It is engraved at Israel’s Holocaust memorial, Yad Vashem, and also appears on the Holocaust memorial in The Hague. In both places, it serves as a warning to remain vigilant against threats, not as a call for mass killing.

He also highlights former defense minister Yoav Gallant’s use of the term “human animals” to describe Hamas fighters. That is not a war crime. After the slaughter, rape, and kidnapping of civilians on October 7, many would understand or even share that reaction.

Unable to find intent among those actually directing the war, Bartov turns to far-right politicians like Bezalel Smotrich and Nissim Vaturi. These individuals do not command troops, issue orders, or shape battlefield decisions. I have studied the actual orders. They focus on destroying Hamas, rescuing hostages, and protecting civilians whenever possible. Their rhetoric is irrelevant to the legal case.

Israel has taken extraordinary steps to limit civilian harm. It warns before attacks using text messages, phone calls, leaflets, and broadcasts. It opens safe corridors and pauses operations so civilians can leave combat areas. It tracks civilian presence down to the building level. I have seen missions delayed or canceled because children were nearby. I have seen Israeli troops come under fire and still be ordered not to shoot back because civilians might be harmed.

Israel has delivered more humanitarian aid to Gaza than any military in history has provided to an enemy population during wartime. More than 94,000 trucks carrying over 1.8 million tons of aid have entered the territory. Israel has supported hospitals, repaired water pipelines, increased access to clean water, and enabled over 36,000 patients to leave Gaza for treatment abroad.

The IDF has coordinated millions of vaccine doses, supplied fuel for hospitals and infrastructure, and facilitated the flow of food and medicine through the UN, aid groups, and private partners. The US–Israeli Gaza Humanitarian Foundation alone has delivered more than 82 million meals - one to two million a day - while weakening Hamas’s control over aid. This is not genocide. It is responsible and historic mid-war humanitarian policy.

Bartov cites death tolls from Hamas health authorities without question. He says 58,000 have been killed, including 17,000 children. But these numbers come from a terrorist organization. They mix civilians and fighters and count anyone under 18 as a child, even though Hamas uses teenagers and younger children as combatants. The figures are not independently verified and have been shown to contain false details, including names, ages, and sex. Civilian deaths are tragic, but in Gaza, they are also part of Hamas’s strategy.

No military operation is judged solely by body counts or destruction figures. If we used Bartov’s logic, every major war would be called genocide.

Two million civilians died in the Korean War, an average of 54,000 per month. The Iraq and Afghanistan wars killed hundreds of thousands. The fight against ISIS leveled multiple cities and killed tens of thousands. None of those wars were considered genocidal. Gaza is not either. War is evaluated based on the actions of commanders, the goals set by leaders, and how well the military follows the laws of war, not by statistics taken out of context.

War is hell. It is inhumane, destructive, and ugly. But it is not automatically a crime. Nations must not target civilians. They must follow the rules of distinction, proportionality, and take all possible care to avoid civilian harm. Israel is doing that. I have seen it.

In Rafah this summer, Israel spent weeks preparing evacuations. It opened new safe areas and waited until civilians had moved before striking Hamas targets. That operation killed Hamas’s top commander, recovered hostages, and kept civilian deaths very low. It was a clear example of Israel’s extraordinary intent and actions to protect civilians while targeting only Hamas, a part of the story ignored by those who reduce war to headlines and numbers.

What is happening in Gaza is tragic. But it is not genocide. And it is not illegal.

Genocide requires clear, provable intent to destroy a people through sustained, deliberate actions. That burden of proof has not been met. Bartov and others have not even tried.

Likewise, the laws of war do not prohibit war itself.

They require that military operations distinguish between combatants and noncombatants, that force be proportional to the objective, and that commanders take all feasible precautions to protect civilian life. I have watched the IDF do exactly that. I have seen restraint, humanitarian aid, and deliberate compliance with legal standards, often at tactical cost.

This is not a campaign of extermination. It is a war against Hamas, a terrorist army embedded in civilian areas by design.

The law matters. So does precision. And above all, truth matters.

John Spencer is the executive director of the Urban Warfare Institute. He is the coauthor of Understanding Urban Warfare^. Learn more at www.johnspenceronline.com. Substack: https://substack.com/@spencerguard^

www.jpost.com/opinion/article-862390

This is an opinion piece based on Bartov, not the IAGS resolution. Not written by a genocide scholar and Bartovs arguments aren’t the same as the IAGS.

SharonEllis · 02/09/2025 18:02

Martymcfly24 · 02/09/2025 17:32

Do you think Israel should take any responsibility for the way they have treated Palestinians in Gaza over the past 20 years and they way Palestinians in the West Bank are currently being treated?

Both sides need to take responsibility for their actions. You seem to only be interested in Israel doing so.

hkathy · 02/09/2025 18:02

“I posted an opinion piece from the Jerusalem Post, therefore the worlds experts are all wrong”

quantumbutterfly · 02/09/2025 18:04

CaramelPecan · 02/09/2025 16:41

Interesting post.

Are you in Israel? Have you lived in Israel and experienced the constant rocket barrages, the need for an Iron Dome and bomb shelters in every home, the terrorist attacks perpetrated by terrorist groups including the PLO and Hamas ongoing from the 70s. I haven’t myself but even I can see from a distance why Israel has had a need to defend itselt.

If not do you support Israel’s existence and the need for a Jewish State?

Do you believe that the Jewish diaspora has no reason not to feel totally safe, in countries outside Israel, after a massive attack and the immediate majority global response which was to defend the attack because Israel had taken security measures to defend its citizens (the open air prison defence), from a elected terrorist organisation with an aim to annihilate it, while attacks against the Jewish diaspora who may never have stepped foot in Israel are dismissed as an inevitable response to that?

What do you think is being done in your name?

As a non-Jew, I see a battle against pure evil, with unprecedented steps being taken to minimise civilian deaths in a area deliberately made into a terrorist playground which the government of those civilians has orchestrated for as many as them to die in as possible, but which the supporters of Palestinians want them to remain in to be used as human sacrifices.

Israel is in an impossible situation of the devil you do, the devil you don’t, but they have to win this battle or the effects will reverberate for generations and not only in Israel.

Appeasement of Islamic extremist terrorists, global support for armed ‘resistance’ (meaning mass slaughter, gang rape, beheadings, babies taken hostage and murdered in captivity etc), suicidal empathy for terrorist causes becoming an accepted emotion, antisemitism becoming mainstream potentially leading to another holocaust of the Jewish people.

This conflict is not the cause of the outpouring of semitism we are currently seeing, it is a reason anti semites have an excuse to show it openly.

I saw a massive SM thread yesterday saying Israel was running the drug cartels in South America, was responsible for 9/11 and 7/7, the Iraq War, and then more sinister - Jews were responsible for Spanish Flu, killing Jesus, pornography, control the world with a 0.2% population of the world…….

I do find it shocking there are Jewish people who have lived through the holocaust, or have families who died in it, that can’t see through the terrorist propaganda and the ultimate outcome as a non Jew myself.

Edited

I saw a massive SM thread yesterday saying Israel was running the drug cartels in South America, was responsible for 9/11 and 7/7,

Interestingly there is apparently plenty of 'intelligence' linking south american drug cartels with islamic extremists in Lebanon and Iran. (Have a google on captagon and hezbollah --- and we all know about the lucrative poppy trade in Afghanistan)

Seems like the definition of DARVO to me.

Martymcfly24 · 02/09/2025 18:08

SharonEllis · 02/09/2025 18:02

Both sides need to take responsibility for their actions. You seem to only be interested in Israel doing so.

Oh I know they do.

You seem to be only interested in Hamas doing so like the poster so it's all fair.

TulipLavender · 02/09/2025 18:10

factor50fan · 02/09/2025 15:40

But this is contradictory. It talks about genocide but also talks about the displacement of Palestinians. The displacement is to stop them being killed in the targeted bombings. How can Israel both be attempting a genocide and trying to remove the population it is trying to genocide from the places that they might be killed?

I will pay attention to allegations like this when I see a comprehensive report which details the actions Hamas has taken and how Israel has responded to them. Because this is a war, and Israel is responding to the active choices that Hamas are making throughout the war, But the role of Hamas is utterly absent from reports like this. You can't arrive at a reasoned assessment without looking at the action of both players. Nor can you arrive at a reasoned assessment without looking at the situation Israel is in. This is not a Israel-Palestine conflict. This is a war of multiple countries in the Middle East, who are trying to destroy Israel.

As I understand it there are 5 acts of genocide one being deliberate destruction of conditions for life or deliberate imposition of conditions designed to destroy a group so if that repeated displacement enables the destruction of all buildings and hospitals and makes Gaza unlivable then I don't think that displacement and genocide are contradictory.

I feel like we are living in different worlds.

Imagine if the circumstances were reversed and Israel was beseiged for months resulting in famine, had 90% of its home destroyed, the vast majority of its health care infrastructure targeted and destroyed, 50% of pregnant women malnourished, the largest incidence of child amputees, children having amputations without anaesthesia, mothers having c sections with no anaesthesia - I can't imagine anyone arguing that that wouldn't be genocide.

Even in this thread people have referred to oct 7 as genocidal yet disputing that the assault on Gaza is genocidal.

And for those who highlight that Israel is under attack - I believe that it is the occupation of Palestinian territories that is the cause of this.

Between 2005 and Oct 6th 2023 Israel killed over 6500 people in Gaza, including in onslaughts such as Operation Cast Lead that were just as deadly as Oct 7th and killed 333 children. Even peaceful resistance such as the many who took place in the March of Return saw thousands of unarmed people near the border being shot.

CaramelPecan · 02/09/2025 18:23

hkathy · 02/09/2025 18:00

This is an opinion piece based on Bartov, not the IAGS resolution. Not written by a genocide scholar and Bartovs arguments aren’t the same as the IAGS.

What was the difference in the argument by the IAGS? Certainly the evidence of the Israeli leaders statements seem to be the same.

What defines a genocide scholar?

Membership of the IAGS is open to human rights activists, students, artists, psychologists, sociologists, film scholars (what even is that?), museum attendants or any interested parties for $125 a year.

Meanwhile there is an opinion of a retired US Major, researcher of urban warfare, and author. Currently serving as the chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute, co-director of the Urban Warfare Project, and host of the Urban Warfare Project Podcast at West Point. He is a founding member of the International Working Group on Subterranean Warfare.

Why is his opinion not as worthy as a student, an artist or a human rights activist?

United States Military Academy - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_War_Institute

dairydebris · 02/09/2025 18:37

TulipLavender · 02/09/2025 18:10

As I understand it there are 5 acts of genocide one being deliberate destruction of conditions for life or deliberate imposition of conditions designed to destroy a group so if that repeated displacement enables the destruction of all buildings and hospitals and makes Gaza unlivable then I don't think that displacement and genocide are contradictory.

I feel like we are living in different worlds.

Imagine if the circumstances were reversed and Israel was beseiged for months resulting in famine, had 90% of its home destroyed, the vast majority of its health care infrastructure targeted and destroyed, 50% of pregnant women malnourished, the largest incidence of child amputees, children having amputations without anaesthesia, mothers having c sections with no anaesthesia - I can't imagine anyone arguing that that wouldn't be genocide.

Even in this thread people have referred to oct 7 as genocidal yet disputing that the assault on Gaza is genocidal.

And for those who highlight that Israel is under attack - I believe that it is the occupation of Palestinian territories that is the cause of this.

Between 2005 and Oct 6th 2023 Israel killed over 6500 people in Gaza, including in onslaughts such as Operation Cast Lead that were just as deadly as Oct 7th and killed 333 children. Even peaceful resistance such as the many who took place in the March of Return saw thousands of unarmed people near the border being shot.

Those accusing Israel of genocide must prove that the intent of Israel is to cause the destruction, in whole or in part, of Gazan Palestinians.

Israel will argue that their intent is not to destroy Palestinians but to destroy Hamas.

Any destroying of civilians ( apols for paraphrase ) will be argued to be unfortunate collateral.

Honestly, given the extremely high bar for a finding of genocide in the past, I think there's virtually no chance of any court finding Israel guilty....

Apart from of course the court of Mumsnet. The armchair military experts and moral guardians of black and white- who will just keep saying Not This- but offer no other realistic courses of action.

Of course, individual war crimes will have been found to have been commited- the same for every war ever, since humans got up on 2 feet.

Which is why war should be avoided at all costs.

TulipLavender · 02/09/2025 18:38

CaramelPecan · 02/09/2025 18:23

What was the difference in the argument by the IAGS? Certainly the evidence of the Israeli leaders statements seem to be the same.

What defines a genocide scholar?

Membership of the IAGS is open to human rights activists, students, artists, psychologists, sociologists, film scholars (what even is that?), museum attendants or any interested parties for $125 a year.

Meanwhile there is an opinion of a retired US Major, researcher of urban warfare, and author. Currently serving as the chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute, co-director of the Urban Warfare Project, and host of the Urban Warfare Project Podcast at West Point. He is a founding member of the International Working Group on Subterranean Warfare.

Why is his opinion not as worthy as a student, an artist or a human rights activist?

Raz Segal, Israeli Historian and Associate Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies has been clear from early on that Genocidal intent is rarely as clearly and explicitly demonstrated than this.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2024/1/14/intent-in-the-genocide-case-against-israel-is-not-hard-to-prove

There is a database of 500 statements documented setting out genocidal intent.

In very few circumstances is it clearer. However no matter what someone can always challenge that the intention behind the words.

Redirect Notice

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2024/1/14/intent-in-the-genocide-case-against-israel-is-not-hard-to-prove

dairydebris · 02/09/2025 18:52

TulipLavender · 02/09/2025 18:38

Raz Segal, Israeli Historian and Associate Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies has been clear from early on that Genocidal intent is rarely as clearly and explicitly demonstrated than this.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2024/1/14/intent-in-the-genocide-case-against-israel-is-not-hard-to-prove

There is a database of 500 statements documented setting out genocidal intent.

In very few circumstances is it clearer. However no matter what someone can always challenge that the intention behind the words.

Statements are not a coherent and sustained governance policy, followed through on.

Statements are not genocide.

Lolapusht · 02/09/2025 19:06

factor50fan · 02/09/2025 17:17

So they should have not been warned to move but left in the conflict zones to die?

Or Israel should not have had a military response and let its enemies grow in confidence, boldness and strength until they do defeat Israel, (which will result in their destruction), as nearly happened in the Egyptian ./ Syrian war against Israel?

And what is Hamas's responsibility for all of this? What action should it have taken to not start a war/ to stop the war and to protect its citizens in the war?

And what responsibility does Hamas have in the living conditions of its people? Are you aware that it was Hamas that forcibly removed most o the citizens from Rafah? So that it could booby trap all the houses and kill IDF soldiers? That forced the demolition of those houses.

You are creating a false narrative by removing Hamas from the narrative. (and all the other ME parties attacking or aiding the attacks on Israel.

Careful…you’re going a monologue and exposing your narrative 😱

Lolapusht · 02/09/2025 19:15

CaramelPecan · 02/09/2025 18:23

What was the difference in the argument by the IAGS? Certainly the evidence of the Israeli leaders statements seem to be the same.

What defines a genocide scholar?

Membership of the IAGS is open to human rights activists, students, artists, psychologists, sociologists, film scholars (what even is that?), museum attendants or any interested parties for $125 a year.

Meanwhile there is an opinion of a retired US Major, researcher of urban warfare, and author. Currently serving as the chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute, co-director of the Urban Warfare Project, and host of the Urban Warfare Project Podcast at West Point. He is a founding member of the International Working Group on Subterranean Warfare.

Why is his opinion not as worthy as a student, an artist or a human rights activist?

Yeah, but what does he actually know?

Ooh…did you just do an appeal to authority?! We’re not meant to do those any more. Did you not get the memo?

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