6000 Palestinians made their way across the wall.

[vivainsomnia]

For a start, I will say that I genuinely have no interest in siding with Hamas, or the IDF, or Palestinians, or Jewish people. I am only interested in better understanding all positions. I have just watched the interview, which turned out to be more of an argument between Kisin and Ammous from a year ago. One main point of disagreement and conflict between them is their differing views on Hamas intentions in Oct 2023.

Kisin believes that it was always Hamas plan to inflict terror and suffering to civilians on that days, whereas Ammous appears to think the intention, at least initially, was just to release Palestinian prisoners.

I read this on Wikipedia The attacks began with a barrage of at least 4,300 rockets launched into Israel[28][29][30] and vehicle-transported and powered paraglider incursions into Israel.[31][32] Hamas militants breached the Gaza–Israel barrier, attacking military bases and massacring civilians in 21 communities, including Be'eri, Kfar Aza, Nir Oz, Netiv Haasara, and Alumim. According to an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) report that revised the estimate on the number of attackers, 6,000 Gazans breached the border in 119 locations into Israel, including 3,800 from the elite "Nukhba forces" and 2,200 civilians and other militants.[33][28][29] Additionally, the IDF report estimated 1,000 Gazans fired rockets from the Gaza Strip, bringing the total number of participants on Hamas's side to 7,000.

It made me think: Could it be that the plan, as it was formulated before the attack, was for Hamas to attack the military bases mainly and but it got totally out of control?

Was it part of the plan that 2,200 civilians would also make their way to Israel and do whatever they did? Do we know the exact role these civilians took? Were they tasked to kidnap people, to rape and kill in the most vicious ways, or did their crossing was unplanned and their actions unexpected?

This is leaving me confused because if it was the case, for instance, that some, or even maybe the worse of the savagery was undertaken by these civilians, I can understand the IDF thinking that the war is not just about Nukhba forces but also about people who would not have been previously identified as dangerous, ie. Palestinian civilians who they are now killing indiscriminately.

Or is it that although classified as civilians, they actually belong to some 'group' that encourages violence against Israel?

Or were these civilians just going with the flow and did take part in some of the demonstrations but did not participate in any of the barbary?

Does anyone actually have any answers to these questions rather than reaching their own biased conclusions as both Kisin and Ammous are doing on that podcast?

I can't possibly answer with facts, OP, only to say that after 7 Oct I watched quite a few YouTube survivor testimonies and many specified that civilians had enthusiastically raped, killed, burned and kidnapped. One Nova escapee was emphatic about it, saying CI-VI-LI-ANS as though spelling it out.

I'll see if I can find it, but it's a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack now and might have been taken down. But the Wikipedia summary details on the Nova massacre specify the perpetrators as "Over 100 operatives of the Al-Qassam Brigades along with Palestinian civilian mobs."

From what you can see of them swarming through the fence (see film below - not sure why the YouTube link hasn't loaded as a thumbnail), to me this doesn't look like an organised attack - more opportunists going in to have some fun. Some of the mutiliations might be accounted for by trophy-seeking, either to boost their social status on return to Gaza or maybe to seek some other reward? There were financial incentives for taking hostages, for obvious reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZD9PbplBDLE

If someone is in active combat/actively part of a terrorist attack - they are not a civilian. They are considered to be militant/terrorist.

The IDF know this of course, they would understand this. The word civilian is being used to justify what happens next to a civilian population.

...and the word "civilian" is also used to describe everyone killed since in Gaza. Clearly a term with a very loose meaning, as you suggest.

OK, I found her video... the relevant bit is from about 07:25

It does not have a loose meaning at all. A civilian is someone not involved in the hostilities and not a member of the armed group. The Israeli authorities often conflate civilians with militants- they say civilians held hostages, civilians killed people ect… but they know that this means (legally) that they are not civilians. It’s manipulation.

not everyone who died in Gaza is a civilian. I think the IDF have identified that they killed nearly 9,000 terrorists.

Any decent news source should be clear that Hamas doesn’t distinguish between civilians and combatants when quoting the death count.

and from 15:21, that's the bit I recalled earlier...

Edited to add: I found this as posted on YouTube a year ago, but it was originally there just after 7/10/23 and her numbers are somewhat haywire. She talks of hundreds and thousands when the real numbers were lower, but I think she can be forgiven for still being in a state of shock, confusion and anger.

I’m not sure you can define civilian that clearly in these circumstances. Are you saying before they crossed the border they were civilians, as soon as they started to rape and mutilate they were combatants, then returned to civilian as they crossed the border home?

When they were parading that girl’s body, were they civilians? Are they only civilians when they’ve been killed by IDF?

And when the fighting is in and around your home, is anyone a civilian anymore? I mean, if I weren’t sent off with children and elderly, I’d be fighting to protect my home. I’m still a civilian given that I’m untrained.

It’s a mess.

If thousands of civilian Palestinians took the opportunity to rape and pillage, then how can Israel treat civilians as civilians?

If thousands of civilian Palestinians took the opportunity to rape and pillage, then how can Israel treat civilians as civilians?

Clearly Israel are struggling to treat civilians as civilians as we can see from the widespread hunger that they have created but they could at least give it a try with the million children that live in Gaza. These little babies for instance, they could have at least tried to treat them like civillians?www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna127533

Are you saying before they crossed the border they were civilians, as soon as they started to rape and mutilate they were combatants, then returned to civilian as they crossed the border home?
Exactly and I agree it's a mess. Wikipedia refers to 1/3rd of those crossing the wall as civilians.

I appreciate the accounts of witnesses but ultimately, they are not going to fully know who was fighting for Hamas, for another group, for Palestine or...just....not even knowing what they are fighting for.

I'm wondering if even intelligence agencies even fully know and that's why this war has reached the scale it has. It's hard to fight a war when you don't even fully know who you are fighting.

Yes, I agree, it's all wild guesses and that particular testimony was kind of hysterical (understandably; I don't use the term dismissively!).

Oops - hit "Post" accidentally! I meant to say, I think she was interviewed literally within a day or so of the attacks, when people were still sitting around on laptops trying to work out WTF had just happened and struggling to identify bodies/remains. So her account very much reflects her perceptions of the trauma.

No you aren’t a civilian because you are untrained. A civilian is clearly defined legally. It is, in short, someone who is not an active combatant in the conflict or a member of an armed group. Civilians have protections under international law and if you were to fight an armed force , even to protect your home, as you give in your example, then you would lose that protection and be considered a combatant.

I think it’s a bit of a moot point “were they civilians”( technically).

Hamas count everyone as civilians when they release figures of the dead - that’s a lie obviously (shock that Hamas lie).

We just can’t possibly know how many Gazans genuinely support Hamas and would happily partake in violence against Israelis. Anyone that would - anyone that facilitates kidnappings, rapes or murders is not an innocent civilian as far as I’m concerned.

It’s a mess in Gaza because it seems a lot of civilians have been radicalised to support Hamas, a violent death cult. But equally you can’t blame those that wouldn’t partake in the violence themselves. Gazans should be assumed to be innocent & non aggressive towards Israelis unless they are seen to be otherwise - at that point (for me) they lose their civilian status.

I think its an interesting thread.

I think the unknown is how many Gazan civil and would react violently if faced with an unarmed vulnerable Israeli and the sad fact is it would be a significant proportion of the population. I think this makes it difficult to distinguish Hamas fighters as many will simply be young men given AK47s and told to try and hit Israeli targets before retreating back into areas with a high density of women and children.

Hamas do not give their 'fighter' death numbers quite deliberately as they want to maximise civilian death rate as part of their ongoing propaganda camapaign.

Seeing the jubilation on Gaza’s streets on Oct 7th while the dead bodies of dead Israelis were paraded, and at the disgusting ‘funeral’ celebration for the Bibas family, shows all you need to know about civilians in Gaza IMO.

This.

Enthusiastic joining in with rape, torture and murder. Awful, no words can describe the depths of my disgust .

I think within any population in any society you will have men willing to rape and kill given the chance.

I think domestic and sexual violence is quite prevalent in Gazan society, almost half of women in one survey said their husband used force during sex (I’d call that rape).

https://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/opt1106/5.htm

The reality is domestic violence and sexual violence is more normalised in some societies than others. so it may not be that surprising that some civilians behaved this way.

This is absolutely not to kick Palestinians, I stand with any woman anywhere who is suffering at the hands of men, that very much includes Palestinian and Israeli women.

I think it got out of control. I doubt that Hamas ordered a bunch of civilians to go on a sexual violence spree, it does nothing to increase sympathy for their cause. But I think that the propensity for this kind of violence probably somewhat differs depending on the social norms within any given group.

Russia is a good example, highly patriarchal, domestic violence os widespread, they decriminalised some domestic violence laws and the level of sexual violence inflicted on some Ukrainian women and children has been horrific.

It doesn’t matter how many “would” do something. It matters what people actually do. Anyway 50% of the population of Gaza are children.

The fact is that a majority of Gaza’s population are not active combatants. It doesn’t matter what Wikipedia said or what a survivor stated. Once somebody is participating in a terrorist attack, they aren’t a civilian. That is a fact.

The attempts to conflate civilians and militants are simply attempts to dehumanise the whole population to justify their suffering.

@CaramelPecan Did it look like there were crowds of 2 million people? What about the children ? What justification could there be for their suffering?

The attempts to conflate civilians and militants are simply attempts to dehumanise the whole population to justify their suffering.

No, it's a gentle reminder that what are commonly referred to as "civilians" could well be "militants" and there is absolutely no way of knowing which is which.

No it isn’t. There are militants and there are civilians and by anyone’s count the vast majority of people in Gaza who are suffering are civilians. Ordinary unarmed people.

You’re just trying to justify their suffering.

I think 'civilian' can be tricky in some situations too.

Ive heard people on here defend what Hamas did on 7 October saying those people at Nova were off duty IDF thus not civilians.

Are off duty soldiers, not in uniform, not in a military installation etc civilians or soldiers?

Ive also heard the Hamas spokesperson say that some personal mistakes were made on 7 October, but it was meant to be an attack on the IDF bases.

Lots of grey area. Because lots and lots of hatred.

There is no grey area. Although an off duty soldier is not technically a civilian ( they remain a member of the armed forces) , this doesn’t justify Hamas’s massacre in Novas. Because It was an indiscriminate attack on unarmed people among many other characteristics that make it a war crime.

Anyway, google tells me there was less than 20 off duty soldiers at the festival. Anyone saying this is trying to justify the attack.

I imagine that Hamas doesn't value women, let alone Israeli or women in Israel, hence the raping spree by Hamas and other civilian Palestinian men so the raping spree to them might mean nothing if they don't value the women they are doing it to as human beings with feelings.

It wasn't just misogyny or lack of respect for women, though, it was absolute hatred of Jewish women and wanting to "dirty" (degrade and dehumanise) them... Hence the torture and mutilation, and the livestreaming.

I agree, it was to humiliate Israel as a country together with it’s citizens, otherwise why film it?

The war was started with the intent to make Israel a pariah state, hated globally, isolated and destroyed on the world stage.

Hence why the atrocities were deliberate in their savagery, leaving Israel no choice but go into Gaza.

Then lights, camera, action!

Not just humiliate, but literally terrorise. Even from a safe distance, I'm terrified by what they did. I'm almost as terrified by the Western liberal misinterpretations of it, and where that could lead us.