A famine has been declared in Gaza city

[SaltAirAndTheRust]

https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-latest-war-israel-city-ceasefire-hamas-13415481

Meanwhile, up to 80,000 troops are being prepared to start an offensive there. There are no longer any words

Surely if you have such strong opinions they must be based on some kind of fact? I would be very interested in reading them as so far I can't see any reason to doubt that Israel are causing famine, or that they're out to totally exterminate the population of Palestine. It would be so helpful to hear your response to the pp.

Unless you don't actually have anything sensible to say 🤔

Lighten up? Wow!

Hostages thread? One in particular? I don't go on every single thread on MN you know.

Still reeling at your suggestion to lighten up.

That wasn't my argument.

You asked "how is it legally untenable".

I explained how and why.

You say "it speaks for itself".

That is actually pretty much how Lemkin would have characterised it (and I strongly agree with him; but he was also - I agree with him there, too - deeply unhappy about how his original concept was watered down - arguably in part to protect states like the UK - in the eventual convention).

The Nazi genocide(s? - again: we can debate how many!), this much we seem to agree on, were definitely genocidal.

But, following the logic of "if it were genocide everyone would be dead already"? The Warsaw Ghetto and the Madagascar plan would not qualify!

That's my core point!

Where's the hate for Egypt? You do know they share a border with Gaza? And Gazans didn't murder 1200 of their people and continue to hold 50 hostages forcing them to dig their own graves. If it were me I'd tap them up for food first.

That’s your choice. I find it distasteful to look at people in a war zone in that way but let’s agree to disagree.

When you’re ready, please may you share your ‘impartial expertise’ sources. I want to make sure I’m not missing any key voices in this discussion.

We can also circle back to Smotrich when you’re ready.

Just check those pictures are actually from Gaza (as most aren't) and that they haven't been recycled (as most are).

This thread is getting quite sick

I was going to share.

Call it a cope out, unfortunately most pictures with healthy looking men contain images of murdered or maimed children.

Ignore my tuppence, if you must. I thought it was worth mentioning.

Funnily enough I'm usually a pro palestine poster and have defended the innocent people and called it a genocide

It's hardly farfetched to consider hamas leaders put themselves first.

But interesting to see how it feels to be on the other end.

Well we've got a resident Egyptian footballer fan, who still has yet to explain why he doesn't get his mates to open up the border.

I am in no doubt that Hamas leaders will put themselves first. They haven't exactly proven themselves to be humanitarians have they.

However I do have an issue with the implication that civilian men, fathers would eat before their children. I imagine they are like the majority of fathers all over the world and would feed their children before themselves. Like as you say they carry their maimed bodies. (I have seen lots of those images too).

A fair question - I believe they are working with Israel and the US and don’t want to destroy those relationships.

I also think the fact Israel stopped all aid and created the deficit of aid means they should be responsible for fixing the issue too.

And remember, Hamas committed those horrendous acts. Not ‘Gazans’. The children currently starving aren’t terrorists.

Remember the other day when I replied to your post with some facts about the homeless crisis in Egypt (11.6% and 12 million homeless, over 3 million children)and how they literally can't afford to house / give healthcare to another 2 million impoverished and malnourished refugees.

So you ignored it then.
Do you disagree with this ?

They are terrified of losing US aid. They were one of the biggest recipient after Israel.

I thought your response was naive then and I still think it now. Really am signing off now.

Again, I’m not going to base my decision about whether there is a famine or not on a handful of photos in the MM. As you suggest, that’s not a reliable way to assess famine. I will let the experts and medics decide what’s going on based on their expertise and experience. Presuming I can decide whether there is or isn’t a famine with no experience and based on a few photos (of the 2m+ people in Gaza) is absurd.

Hamas members are fathers.
I have seen photos of starving men, who look like death.
It's the lean men who concern me.
It's not unlikely that many hamas members live alongside innocence civilians in camps, starving the civilians, charging crazy prices for food.
Hamas are bad people.
As the IRA were a nightmare for locals who just wanted peace.
As we know they killed many catholic people and brought terror to the areas with violent street justice.

Naive: because I pointed out they cannot house their own population and could not manage another influx?
It seems like a very valid point to me.
You should have explained why on the other thread so it could be debated instead of ignoring it
UNWRA does not have a mandate in Egypt so smaller charities have to support the current 100,000 Palestinan refugees who have fled since 7/10 which is a huge strain.

I am denying that there is a famine.
I'm saying that food is being withheld from children to feed leaders.

Look I agree with the vast majority of your points about both Hamas and the IRA. Hamas are evil and they do live among the communities and are controlling a black market that stops civilians getting food.

But not all Palestinians are Hamas and the civilians male, female and children are starving which is why a famine has been declared.

Not to mention the fact that Israeli members of parliament like Smotrich have made it clear that they don’t want Palestinians in Gaza. Egypt won’t open their doors to Palestinians because they don’t want to rehome 2m+ people forever. Especially 2m angry, dehumanised people who have lost everything. They are vulnerable to extremism and obviously Egypt wouldn’t want to risk their own security with Israel if a future terrorist attack was planned from within their borders.

And you’re basing this on photos rather than the vast amount of evidence written by experts?

Exactly,

Especially if they are ghettoised, disenfranchised and living in poor conditions watching their homeland being developed as a rich mans playground.

That is a situation ripe for extremism to develop.

Smotrich and his compatriots use sound bites and grand statements instead of logic and thinking.

No. It's strange how none of the many Arab countries around have offered help to their Muslim brothers in Gaza. I'm sure they could support them if they wanted to via Egypt's border. It's almost like they don't want to help.

I don't believe that all Palestinians are hamas at all.
I have seen adults who are skin and bone.
Less people would starve if their leaders were fairer.

This isn’t true. We’ve had the Arab proposal and then the New York Declaration. All offering a high amount of support.