27 children have been murdered by the IOF every day for 650 days in Gaza (UNICEF)

[Wedonttalkaboutboris]

Facts:

• At least 15,000 children have been killed since the war began in October 2023.
• Many have died in airstrikes, building collapses, or stampedes at aid sites.
• Thousands more have been injured, often with life-altering wounds, burns, or amputations.
• Gaza is facing famine-like conditions.
• Children are eating grass, leaves, or going days without food.
• Severe malnutrition is widespread, especially in northern Gaza. Babies and toddlers are dying of hunger-related causes.
• Nearly all children in Gaza are now considered to have signs of acute psychological trauma:
• Nightmares
• Bedwetting
• Non-responsiveness (shutdown/dissociation)
• Panic at loud sounds
• Many have lost one or both parents, siblings, or entire families.
• Most hospitals have been bombed or shut down.
• Children can’t access basic care, vaccines, or treatment for chronic illnesses.
• Wounded kids are operated on without anesthesia in some cases.
• Over 1 million children have been displaced—many multiple times.
• Families sleep in tents, rubble, or outdoors with no clean water or toilets.
• Nearly all schools have been shut down, destroyed, or turned into shelters.
• Many teachers and schoolchildren have been killed.
• A whole generation risks growing up with no access to education or safety.
• Children are drinking dirty water, leading to diarrheal diseases and infections.
• Outbreaks of hepatitis, lice, and scabies are widespread.
• Even in declared “safe zones” or aid areas, children have been shot, suffocated in stampedes, or killed by nearby strikes.
• Some have died while queuing for water or food.

“There is no safe place left for children in Gaza. They are being killed, starved, maimed, and psychologically shattered. This is not a humanitarian crisis—this is a crisis of humanity.”
— Save the Children, July 2025

@Anonimummy
“Where do they get their participants and from what areas of the country because I’ve never been asked my opinion nor has any of the many people I know?
I imagine a fair amount of participants will be anti-semites and anti-Israel anyway considering what we have seen from the shocking response to Oct 7th in the West.”

A well designed survey will have a representative sample of the population, and YouGov are experts in surveys. The findings of the survey is reflective of what the population as a whole thinks.

I do think Israel has and had a right to defend itself.

In the aftermath of 7/10:

“Netanyahu said he had instructed the military to “return fire on a scale that the enemy has not known. The enemy will pay an unprecedented price.” Shortly afterward, the generals significantly loosened their rules of engagement, expanding the set of military targets that their subordinates could hit in pre-emptive airstrikes, while exponentially increasing — sometimes by a factor of 20 — the number of civilians that officers could endanger in each attack.”

Seeing what has happened in Gaza now, it is understandable why people feel the approach the IDF took was not proportionate.

Israel could have used more targeted assassinations- which we know it is capable of, it could have used diplomacy - using links it already has in Middle East to stop money going to Hamas and isolate them, and also focused on the goal of return of hostages. It could have stopped the continued building of settlements in the WB and could have offered Palestinians a viable path to peace that excluded Hamas as a way forward.

It apparently took 5 hours for the IDF to reach some areas under attack. Hindsight is amazing, but there also appears to have been complacency, and I wonder how much of this led to guilt and then the ferocity of the attack on Gaza.

The existence of Israel is the root cause.

The ‘Palestinian cause’ arose from that because the Arab armies in 1948 and 1967 failed to annihilate Israel.

Remember Israel wasn’t alleged to be illegally occupying Palestinian land until Egypt and Jordan, who WERE actually illegally occupying the land, were defeated by Israel in the six day war in 1967.

The PLO was established in 1964. Who did they want to be liberated from when Israel wasn’t occupying the West Bank and Gaza then?

Hamas (the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood) was established as an alternative campaign for armed resistance after the PLO entered into a peace process with Israel, and was/is committed to the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic state in the whole region of Palestine including Israel.

Kind of makes it clearer why there is no peace in the region doesn’t it?

I don’t think it’s all down to Israel,

Since the 1948 Palestine war, Israel has been denying Palestinian refugees who were expelled or fled from what became its territory the right of return and right to their lost properties. Israel has been occupying the West Bank and the Gaza Strip since the 1967 Six-Day War, which is now the longest military occupation in modern history, and in contravention of international law has been constructing large settlements there that separate Palestinian communities from one another and prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. The settlements are mostly encircled by the Israeli West Bank barrier, which intentionally separates the Israeli and Palestinian populations, a policy called Hafrada. Jewish Israeli settlers are subject to Israeli civil law, but the Palestinian population is subject to military law. Settlers also have access to separate roads and exploit the region's natural resources at its Palestinian inhabitants' expense.[7][8]
Academic comparisons between Israel–Palestine and South African apartheid were prevalent by the mid-1990s.[9][10] Since the definition of apartheid as a crime in the 2002 Rome Statute, attention has shifted to the question of international law.[11] In December 2019, the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination[12] announced it was reviewing the Palestinian complaint that Israel's policies in the West Bank amount to apartheid.[13] Since then, several Israeli, Palestinian, and international human rights organizations have characterized the situation as apartheid, including Yesh Din, B'Tselem,[14][15][16] Human Rights Watch,[16][17] and Amnesty International. This view has been supported by United Nations investigators,[18]the African National Congress (ANC),[19]human rights groups,[20][21] and many prominent Israeli political and cultural figures.[22][23][24] The International Court of Justice in its 2024 advisory opinion found that Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories constitutes systemic discrimination and is in breach of Article 3 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, which prohibits racial segregation and apartheid.[25][26] The ruling did not specify whether it was referring to racial segregation, apartheid, or both.[27][28][29]

Are we to take the pro-Hamas marches and protests as a representation of what the population of a whole thinks?

Pro-Hamas obviously because they’re not protesting against Hamas starting a war, the atrocities on Oct 7th, with Hamas publicly admitting they are using Gazans as human shields, and they were chanting from ‘the river to the sea’ (as well as ripping down hostage posters) and we all know what that means.

It still doesn’t answer the question of who was polled, especially those who thinks troops shouldn’t have gone into Gaza, when it is known there are hundreds of of miles of tunnels in Gaza which were especially built under civilian infrastructure for Hamas to hide in, smuggle arms through, to rearm and regroup!

How was Israel to offer Palestinians a viable path to peace that excluded Hamas, who rule Gaza and murder and torture dissenters, with Hamas still in power and their terror tunnels intact?

The Palestinians had self determination in Gaza in 2005. A majority elected Hamas in 2006.

How did Oct 7th (and the celebrations afterwards) show Israel that the Palestinians wanted a viable path to peace exactly?

There are so many reports of Israeli abuses of Palestinians human rights I don’t know where to begin
here is a report from 2008 which details abuses/ child casualties from operation cast lead another Israeli incursion long before October 7th
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/dcipalestine/pages/1284/attachments/original/1433971286/Bearing_the_Brunt_Again_September_2009.pdf?1433971286#page89hi

defence for children international has reams of reports dating over years detailing abuses of Palestinian children’s human rights by Israel
https://www.dci-palestine.org

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-briefing-notes/2025/07/israel-must-stop-killings-and-home-demolitions-occupied-west-bank

Arguing over who started it and who did what to whom is pointless! It’s happened. None of it can be changed and frankly there is so much fault on both sides now.

October 7th was an appalling terror attack. There is no doubt about that. There is no justification for what went in that day. And Hamas are entirely responsible for their actions.
The Israeli response has been equally if not more horrific than the events of October 7th. The sheer numbers dead, seriously injured, starving go so far beyond what could remotely be considered a proportionate response. The list of the horrors that have taken place due to the actions of the IDF and the Israeli government is too long to list.

Hamas will not surrender or return the remaining hostages now because frankly the hostages are the only thing holding Isreal back from totally obliterating Gaza. Isreal will not stop until every last Palestinian in Gaza is dead. Then they will do exactly the same in the West Bank. And the world is standing back and watching on. Worse we are facilitating it.

Hamas are terrorists Yes. But so are members of the Israeli government. Several members of the current Israeli government are or have been members of territorial groups in Israel. Ironically in the 90s Netanyahu was being protected from some of the very individuals he is now in government with. These are not good or honourable people. They have been vocally supporting the idea of destroying Gaza for decades.

It all needs to fucking stop.

Similarly to Oct 7th, when you start a war, there are consequences, including displacement and exile as has happened in every war in history.

The Arab armies started the war in 1948 and most Arabs in the region fled after being told they could return after Israel had been annihilated. Unfortunately for them it didn’t work out the way they wanted.

Jewish people were also expelled and fled from Arab countries in 1948 and afterwards. Do they have the right to return to their homes and have their properties back? Are they committing terrorist attacks on those countries?

https://www.mena-researchcenter.org/the-emigration-and-expulsion-of-jews-from-arab-countries/

Millions of Germans fled and were forcibly displaced between 1944 and 1948. Have they used it as an excuse for terrorism for 77 years?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950)

Actually thinking about it, millions of Jewish people were murdered, starved, forced into labour, tortured, raped, imprisoned and had their homes and property confiscated across German occupied Europe between 1941 and 1945. Have they committed terrorist attacks in those countries in retaliation?

I’m not arguing over anything if that was aimed at me. I have been responding to posts. Isn’t that what a debate is or is it ‘arguing’ if it’s not responding from other poster’s one sided narrative?

Do you not think that Hamas’ MO of:

1. using civilians as human sacrifices,
2. using child soldiers,
3. stealing and hijacking aid for revenue to keep themselves in food and pay their fighters to keep the war going,
4. the refusal of neighbouring Arab countries to take in refugees from a densely populated urban war zone,

has directly contributed to the horrors that have taken place?

Can you recall another war like it?

You seem to be condoning Hamas not releasing the remaining 50 hostages, half of which are dead?

Do you seriously think Hamas care about Gaza being obliterated more than they care about Israel’s standing being obliterated on the world stage?

I find your opinions deeply concerning.

Glad you at least agree that the murder of 20,000 children is ‘disproportionate’, though I hope you also see that they’re not just tragic “one way or another”, collateral damage for you.

The fact is, Israel’s response is not just excessive- it includes repeated violations of international law and meets the threshold for war crimes. In the last 48 hours alone, four children have already died from malnutrition

How does starving newborn babies in incubators help fight Hamas?
How does killing children at aid lines bring peace?

Maybe you need to look up the images of three month old Yahya Fadi al-najjar who died yesterday due to Israel’s siege, severe malnutrition and lack of baby formula or Razan Abu Zaher, aged four? Then tell me if Israel is justified in their response.

This isn’t about political opinion anymore- it’s about human lives and a catastrophic collapse of humanity and protection.

No one’s excusing Hamas, but using them to justify the mass killing and starvation of civilians (including over 17,000 children) is grotesque.

You can condemn Hamas and still recognise that Israel’s response is a war crime. It’s not either/or.

Calling people “Hamas-condoning” for criticising that scale of violence is just a lazy deflection.

and comparing Palestinians to post-war Germans or Jewish refugees who no longer live under daily military assault is a false equivalence. No one is blowing up synagogues in Germany today because their grandparents were murdered because they aren’t still being killed, starved, or occupied by that regime.

Palestinians aren’t “using history as an excuse”they’re responding to active, present-day violence and control, including settler expansion, military raids, and mass civilian death. If you want peace, it starts with ending the conditions that keep fuelling the violence, not erasing or deflecting from them.

Protesting mass civilian death isn’t “pro-Hamas.” People marching because tens of thousands of children are being killed, starved, and bombed with no escape. That’s not support for terrorism. That’s basic humanity.

This argument erases the Nakba and decades of Palestinian displacement that began before 1967. The PLO was formed in 1964 because Palestinians were already living as refugees, not because Israel “wasn’t occupying Gaza.” And blaming Hamas for the lack of peace ignores decades of military occupation, land theft, and siege- that’s what fuels resistance, not just ideology.

@GoldenGail

I honestly find it horrifying that a thread titled “27 children have been murdered by the IOF every day for 650 days” (a verified UNICEF statistic) is met with people still trying to justify, deflect, or minimise what’s happening.

This isn’t about ignoring any other suffering. But when you’re presented with the fact that tens of thousands of children have been killed, starved, bombed, or shot at aid points and your first reaction is “but Hamas” or “well, 7/10…” something has gone deeply wrong morally.

This isn’t about politics anymore. It’s about basic humanity. These children are not collateral damage. They are not political pawns. They are human beings, and they’re being dehumanised even in death. I will never apologise for centring them.

Didn't Netanyahu state that he supported Hamas, including funding them, to act as a more effective opposition to the PLO whose influence he wanted to destroy.
Why would he do that? Just, why? It's a bit like Maggie Thatcher deciding that the SDLP were getting a bit too successful and really the IRA should be armed better. Or maybe I'm missing something.
And isn't he doing the same now in Gaza, funding the ISIS type group (name escapes me).
He really has a lot to answer for.

Perhaps naive of you. Why would a state actively attacking a people also act in good faith to provide them with real humanitarian relief?

What have Hamas got to do with the GHF randomly shooting people queuing for aid?

Over 800 people have died at aid sites or en route to aid convoys. As evidenced now, the US/Israel have clearly used this as an opportunity to weaponise aid.

Also taken from chat GPT:

Israel and the U.S.-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF) have effectively turned food distribution sites into deadly traps, not relief zones. The Haaretz investigation reveals soldiers were explicitly ordered to fire on unarmed Palestinians at aid queues—a practice soldiers call “Operation Salted Fish,” referring to a lethal version of “Red Light, Green Light.”

Over 500 Palestinians have been killed and more than 4,000 wounded at GHF aid sites, per Gaza Health Ministry and UN data. Witnesses describe crowds corralled through military-style corridors, shot at as a means of them being “dispersed” and controlled.

GHF was created as an alternative to UN agencies, with direct U.S. funding and Israeli military- and contractor involvement. Aid distribution is erratic, tightly controlled, and centered within military zones—raising widespread alarm from the UN, MSF, and multiple governments. They’ve condemned it as “slaughter masquerading as humanitarian aid.”

In short: aid sites are not simply mismanaged—they’re being weaponised. Those who still believe Israel would deliver food to a population it was intentionally attacking haven’t followed this burning evidence.

• https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/6/27/israeli-soldiers-ordered-to-shoot-at-unarmed-gaza-aid-seekers-report
• https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2025/06/28/ywqn-j28.html
• https://mondoweiss.net/2025/07/palestinian-testimonies-of-deliberate-israeli-killings-at-u-s-run-aid-sites-were-ignored-until-the-perpetrators-admitted-to-it
• https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-deliberately-shoot-at-unarmed-gazans-near-aid-sites-report-/3614971
• https://www.ft.com/content/6c74d86c-330f-4184-9e15-6de4debe0f7

Indeed he does have much to answer for.
There really is no denying that politically this war has benefited him greatly. He was on the cusp of corruption proceedings prior to October 7th.
There has been many suggestions that Israel had intelligence about what was coming on October 7th but failed to take the intelligence seriously. Netanyahu has repeatedly denied requests for inquiries into the failings of the IDF both in the lead up and during the attack.

I understand it's more than suggestions. The US stated that Egypt informed Israel about intelligence it uncovered a few days before the attack (Israel has denied this).
There was certainly other intelligence gathered in Israel warning that an attack was imminent but it was ignored.
Netanyahu decided to ignore it.

Negligence.

To be honest nothing now would surprise me when it comes to Netanyahu. I literally wouldn’t put anything past him.
This war has and continues to be of huge benefit to him.

To me, as someone who has done sciences to university level, doubting ability to do statistical sampling well is like doubting the earth is round. But I guess it can’t be taken for granted that other people haven’t learnt about it:

Here is Yougov link:
https://yougov.co.uk/about/panel-methodology

Here is the AI overview I got when I put in statistical sampling for dummies from Google:

Statistical sampling is a way to learn about a large group (a population) by studying a smaller, representative part of it (a sample). It's like tasting a soup to see if it needs more salt – you don't need to eat the whole pot to know! In statistics, this involves carefully selecting a sample to make inferences about the entire population.

Why use statistical sampling?
Efficiency:
Studying an entire population can be costly, time-consuming, and sometimes impossible. Sampling allows for quicker and more affordable data collection.
Accuracy:
If done correctly, a sample can accurately represent the population, allowing researchers to draw reliable conclusions.
Feasibility:
For some populations (like all humans on Earth), it's simply not practical to study every individual.

Key Concepts:
Population:
The entire group you're interested in (e.g., all registered voters in a city).

Sample:
A smaller, representative subset of the population.

Sampling methods:
Different ways to select a sample (e.g., random sampling, stratified sampling).

Bias:
A systematic error that makes the sample unrepresentative of the population.

Margin of error:
The amount of error you can expect when using a sample statistic to estimate a population parameter.

Confidence level:
The probability that the sample results fall within a certain range of the true population value.

Sampling distribution:
A distribution of sample statistics (e.g., sample means) from multiple samples of the same population.

Example:
Imagine you want to know the average height of all students in a large university. Instead of measuring every student, you could randomly select a sample of 100 students and measure their heights. If your sampling method is sound, you can use the average height of those 100 students to estimate the average height of all students in the university.

Types of Sampling Methods:
Probability sampling:
Every member of the population has a known chance of being selected. This is generally preferred for making strong statistical inferences.
Simple random sampling: Each individual has an equal chance of being chosen.
Stratified sampling: The population is divided into subgroups (strata), and samples are drawn from each.
Non-probability sampling:
The probability of selecting any individual is not known. This is often used when probability sampling is not feasible, but it comes with a higher risk of bias.

In essence, statistical sampling is a powerful tool that allows us to gain insights about a large population by studying a carefully selected subset. By understanding the principles of statistical sampling, you can critically evaluate research findings and make informed decisions based on data.

As for the rest of your points- I’m sorry you see the marches in support for Palestinians as being pro- Hamas. I can see though why those vehemently defending Israel at the current time would feel like that, although that’s not what I believe.

Taking the results of an election in 2005 as being representative views of the population towards Hamas in 2023 and now- that’s a massive assumption. More then half the population were not even born then.

The situation is very different now anyway - Israel has subjugated the Palestinian population.

There are countries regionally and globally supporting a 2SS. Trump is keen for more countries to normalise relations with Israel which is seems like it’s only going to happen with a viable 2SS. Think how opinion of Israel will further suffer if Israel persists with ethnic cleansing of the WB and Gaza instead.

👏

I heard this idea too on the news - that the hostages maybe the only thing preventing Israel from completely obliterating Gaza. There doesn’t seem much more to obliterate though, taking a look at Google maps.

What is our government doing?