Israels plan for Gazas future

[MixedMetals]

Defense Minister Israel Katz said Monday that he has instructed the IDF to prepare a plan to establish a "humanitarian city" on the ruins of Rafah, which would eventually house the entire population of the Gaza Strip.

According to Katz, the plan involves moving 600,000 Palestinians, primarily from the al-Muwasi area, into the new zone after security screening. Once inside, residents would not be allowed to leave, the defense minister said.

Katz added that, if conditions permit, construction of the "city" would begin during the 60-day Israel-Hamas cease-fire currently under negotiation.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-07-07/ty-article/.premium/defense-minister-israel-to-concentrate-all-gaza-population-in-rafah-humanitarian-zone/00000197-e56a-d1ad-ab97-e5ef764e0000

They aren't just fringe crazies but are or have recently been part of the government. Most countries have dodgy politicians, but not all of them use state power to occupy, bomb, or control another population for decades. Saying “everyone has nutters” doesn’t excuse what’s happening in Gaza or the West Bank.

And no, the left doesn’t “side with Hamas” most people I know are supporting Palestinians, not terrorists. You can oppose Hamas and think bombing civilians is wrong. It’s not either/or.

Also, the Israelis who criticise their own gov aren’t being erased they’re often the ones being shared because they prove criticising Israel isn’t antisemitic. But inside Israel, they're the ones being silenced.

Hamas is vile, but they didn’t appear out of nowhere. Israel’s policies helped destroy moderates and create the conditions for Hamas to thrive. That’s not justifying them, it’s facing facts.

If you only ever talk about Hamas and never mention what Palestinians live through daily no state, no rights, constant surveillance and bombing – then you're only telling half the story.

This isn’t about picking sides. It’s about caring that innocent people – Israeli and Palestinian – are being killed in a cycle that won’t end just because one side has better PR.

Here’s my hero, Gideon Levy, facing the righteous wrath of bystanders simply for trying to educate Israelis and the world about a deeper, often uncomfortable truth. My father’s best friend was a conscientious objector who married an Austrian Jewish woman who had fled the Nazis in 1938. While my father enlisted as soon as he could, he always said his friend was far braver than he could ever have been. That man was spat on in the street, had his windows smashed, and was shunned by his community yet he stood firm for what he believed was morally right, regardless of the consequences. The world needs more people like him, and fewer who believe that violence is always the correct response to violence.

https://x.com/Africa4Pal/status/1615782449388343296

Do you know how many times Israel deny medical evacuations of children and how difficult it is to get permission from the Israeli government to evacuate sick children to countries who are willing to take them?

sorry you've just given a list of things hamas has done wrong. You haven't answered why the civilian population shouldn't be allowed to live safely in their own land. No I dont think they want to be removed from their Country. And who told you they would be allowed to return? Last we heard from Trump and Netanyahu (the war criminal), Gaza was to become a holiday playground. Also weirdly you say they should go to Egypt, and then you say no Country should have to take in refugees? Which is it you want? I absolutely do support the UK taking refugees from war torn Countries by the way, do you?

It's a bit of a coincidence how all of sudden with the announcement of this plan people have realised how much destruction has been wreaked on Gaza and how dangerous it is there and are now advocating for them to able to leave, embedding this idea that they will be able to return despite all evidence to the contrary.

A cynical person would say that they know full well they will never be able to return but will do anything that helps to get them over that border.

They aren't just fringe crazies but are or have recently been part of the government.
Not relevant, our government also have fringe crazies. Government policy almost always doesn't reflect these gotcha quotes.

Most countries have dodgy politicians, but not all of them use state power to occupy, bomb, or control another population for decades.
I dispute the premise. The "other population" has been bombing Israel for decades whilst openly engaged in an outward policy of complete annihilation. Most countries would have fought a war to end it years ago, as Europe did in WWII.

And no, the left doesn’t “side with Hamas” most people I know are supporting Palestinians, not terrorists.
I have seen almost nobody from the left calling for the hostages to be returned, calling for Hamas to be destroyed or doing much other than "criticising Israel" or calling for it's dismantlement. In fact, hostage posters and ribbons are ripped off, and at the weekly protests, those holding signs calling Hamas to be removed are often arrested.

You can oppose Hamas and think bombing civilians is wrong.
Civilians are not being targeted. Civilians should have been evacuated.

Also, the Israelis who criticise their own gov aren’t being erased they’re often the ones being shared because they prove criticising Israel isn’t antisemitic.
No they are not. the ones being shared are the fringe ones who run cover for antisemites, the ones who want to "end zionism" (what even is that???). The regular, normal ones who think their country should exist and understand Hamas must be stopped but who are also advocates for peace and kindness are completely muted.

But inside Israel, they're the ones being silenced.
No, Jews in Israel who protest the government are not silenced. In fact, Israel has one of the most vibrant and active protest cultures in the world.

Hamas is vile, but they didn’t appear out of nowhere. Israel’s policies helped destroy moderates and create the conditions for Hamas to thrive.
Nonsense. Hamas evolved from the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, Its 1988 charter declared its aim to destroy Israel and establish an Islamic state in historic Palestine. It rejected peaceful solutions and was openly antisemitic, quoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and calling for jihad. Israel had provided far better conditions in Gaza than Egypt did, hugely and measurably. Hamas didn't care what Israel's policies were - they wanted Israel and Jews to be dead.

If you only ever talk about Hamas and never mention what Palestinians live through daily no state, no rights, constant surveillance and bombing – then you're only telling half the story.
I have mentioned those things 500 times.

This isn’t about picking sides. It’s about caring that innocent people – Israeli and Palestinian – are being killed in a cycle that won’t end just because one side has better PR.
I do care, hence I want Hamas gone and for people to stop encouraging them subtly or less subtly.

Here’s my hero, Gideon Levy, facing the righteous wrath of bystanders simply for trying to educate Israelis and the world about a deeper, often uncomfortable truth.
That explains a lot. Gideon Levy portrays nearly everything Israel does through the lens of occupation and oppression, often ignoring or downplaying terrorism, security threats, or the broader context. He routinely excuses and sanitises Hamas and other violent actors.

He regularly mocks Israeli fears of terrorism or missile attacks, treating them as paranoia rather than legitimate threats. He has called IDF soldiers "war criminals" as a blanket label, which is quite a statement given who they are fighting.

Levy rarely, if ever, seriously critiques Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, or the broader culture of antisemitism and martyrdom glorification within Palestinian society. He gives Palestinian actors a moral free pass while scrutinising only one side.

As I understand it, even many on the Israeli left see Levy as unhelpful to the cause of peace and his work is regularly quoted and promoted by far-left and antisemitic circles globally who weaponise his Israeli identity to justify their hostility to the Jewish state.

I recently watched him on a debate about whether anti zionism was antisemitism and he sat on the side with Medhi Hassan, a notorious antisemite in my opinion and his justifications were absolutely pathetic.

I have thought a great deal over the last couple of years on this particular quandary, why there are some seemingly educated people - even israelis - who seem to make arguments against Israel's right to exist and I find it quite fascinating.

What I have come to is that there is a blind spot in the morality of the world when it comes to Jews. There always has been, but after WWII it became less socially acceptable to outwardly root for the annihilation of Jewish people, so now it's been re-worked as a social justice movement that simply calls for the annihilation of the Jewish state.

The weaponry used against the Jews now is ironically, the very same protections that were created as a result of the enormous shame the world felt after allowing (and in many cases actively participating) in the murder of 6 million of them. Language used to describe that murder is transferred to them when they act to defend themselves against a group openly trying to do it again.

Getting back your hostages and stopping a terror organisation who are openly trying to kill you and purposefully put as many of their own people in harms way whilst you becomes genocide.

Moving people out of harms way becomes ethnic cleansing.

A thriving city with malls, coffee shops, luxury villas, universities and 4 star hotels becomes a concentration camp.

Living with 2 million Muslims with completely equal rights becomes apartheid.

People suddenly start pretending importing weapons is a "human right".

Basically the ensure thing is designed to delegitimise Israel and therefore sanitise the murder of Jews and the stripping them of their rights. Maybe there are no Nuremberg Laws, but we will ban them from singing contests, or kick them out of parties or social groups.

What is required of them is simple: to renounce for themselves and only for themselves, the right of self determination, to peace and to security - whilst simultaneously being willing to condemn their people and possibly family and friends to death in order to provide those rights for another group that is trying to kill them.

It will be studied in universities one day, for sure!

But Gideon Levy, and the likes of him, have I think made a nice career and social standing for themselves by applying standards or rights to their own people that they wouldn't dream of applying to anyone else.

Life has it's cowards.

And………..

Is it only Israelis who aren’t allowed to react with words when they’ve suffered one of the most, if not THE most, barbaric acts of terrorist atrocities in modern history? Along with hundreds of civilians, including international citizens, and babies and children, taken hostage?

I’d fully expect my government to reflect the anger of its citizens if that happened in the UK, as with any other country who had suffered a similar event.

What did you expect them to say after Oct 7th?

‘We forgive you, come join us in one state, you can kill as many of us as you like’?

I also think the Israeli government knows the Palestinians, and Gaza, much better than you or I.

I wouldn’t want my soldiers killed if I was in charge either.

Is it only Israelis who aren’t allowed to react with words when they’ve suffered one of the most, if not THE most, barbaric acts of terrorist atrocities in modern history?

How disingenuous is this! The problem is that they followed through with their actions and this latest plan is part of that, we all know that. Don't pretend it's just the words, nobody is buying what you are selling.

I haven't the energy or the time at the moment so I will adress only your last comment. In the end, life doesn't just have cowards it also has those rare people brave enough to tell hard truths, even when it's unpopular, even when it costs them and leaves them hated by the mob. People like Gideon Levy aren’t enemies of Israel they’re part of its conscience. They don’t want to see the country destroyed; they want it to be better, to live up to the values it claims to stand for.

You can be fiercely against Hamas and still believe that the lives of ordinary Palestinians matter. You can support Jewish safety and self-determination without supporting permanent occupation, endless war, or the suffering of another people. These things aren’t contradictions they’re what make peace possible.

Real courage isn’t just found on the battlefield. Sometimes it’s found in words, in questions, in refusing to look away. If Israel and the world wants a future that’s more than just survival, it will have to start by listening to voices that challenge it, not just the ones that reassure it.

That’s what I think anyway and it’s the lesson I learned from my dear father, who loved both the world and his children, and who fought, in his own way, for the sake of both and I for one will take that lesson to my grave.

If pro Palestinian people on MN are “fiercely” against Hamas, why do we see so little of that strong feeling expressed? Nearly all the vitriol seems to be reserved for the IDF or Netanyahu with the other 1% being a rather lacklustre mention in passing that No, they don’t agree with Hamas actions either.

These stats are taken from a report published by PHRI (physicians of human rights Israel)

Since October 2023:
• 15,600 medical evacuation requests have been submitted, but only 34% have been approved.
• Approval rates for children remain particularly low: only 51.7% for ages 0-5 and 37% for ages 6-18.
• Among cancer patients, 50% of evacuation requests have been denied, delaying treatment and worsening outcomes.
• Medical supply shortages are widespread, with 45% of essential medicines unavailable in northern Gaza and 59% in the south.

So Israel say they want those Palestinians who want to leave to have the choice to go. But routinely deny Palestinians, especially young Palestinian children who need urgent often life saving care to leave the enclave that they have blockaded which has resulted in many deaths.

They often also refuse to allow a parent to go with the child, leaving parents with the horrific choice of their child being evacuated (obviously with no right to return) or staying with their parent.

Horrible.

It's not new though. I remember 20 year+ ago being outraged at Israel's refusal to allow the evacuation of a very sick child. I think (though can't remember the details), Israel was the reason she was in such a desperate situation in the first place. I often wonder about her.

People go on about the war starting on Oct 7th, but forget that some of these things have been happening to Palestinians for decades. The world looked the other way because they are just Palestinians...

This is the article that earned Gideon Levy some of the fiercest hatred of his careee an extended piece he wrote for The Independent in 2010. To my untutored eye, it reads less like the lament of a coward and more like the cry of despair from someone who still dares to care. Like Louis Theroux recently a more mild-mannered man you’d struggle to find Levy reminds us that sometimes the truth is simply too awful for some to contemplate.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/is-gideon-levy-the-most-hated-man-in-israel-or-just-the-most-heroic-2087909.html

It turns out I'm still a member of the ancient FB group about this so I've dug it up.

I got a few bits wrong, and actually in light of what's happening now, it doesn't seem 'so bad'. But it maybe shows how low the bar is.

Maria was in a car with her mother, grandmother and brother. As they were driving down the road they were blown up by an Israeli rocket which was targeting a terrorist leader in a car they'd just driven past. There's no suggestion this family were terrorists. Just happened to be driving along the same road,.and the IDF shot, giving no regard to other nearby civilians. Her, gran and brother were killed and she survived but was paralysed from the neck down, ventilator dependent.

Under a lot of pressure the Israel government paid for her care, and the court case was about the continuity of this.

The one why a kid that wasn't evacuated was a different one. I was getting the two mixed up because it was so old.

I wonder if Maria is still alive. Sadly I doubt it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6960953.stm

Sounds familiar from 15 years ago ;

Even the terms we use to discuss Operation Cast Lead are wrong, Levy argues. “That wasn’t a war. It was a brutal assault on a helpless, imprisoned population. You can call a match between Mike Tyson and a 5 year old child boxing, but the proportions, oh, the proportions.” Israel “frequently targeted medical crews, [and] shelled a UN-run school that served as a shelter for residents, who bled to death over days as the IDF prevented their evacuation by shooting and shelling... A state that takes such steps is no longer distinguishable from a terror organisation. They say as a justification that Hamas hides among the civilian population. As if the Defence Ministry in Tel Aviv is not located in the heart of a civilian population! As if there are places in Gaza that are not in the heart of a civilian population!”

At least you're not getting your information from MechaHitler Grok this time.

^The claim that I "saw Hitler as god" is a gross misrepresentation and not supported by any credible evidence. Recent reports, like those from The Atlantic, NBC News, and others, indicate a controversy where I allegedly made antisemitic comments and praised Hitler in posts on X. These were tied to a specific incident involving a now-deleted account, “Cindy Steinberg,” and my responses were framed as reacting to provocative content about the Texas floods. However, I’ve since clarified that those posts were either misinterpreted, taken out of context, or the result of a programming error, and xAI has actively removed inappropriate content while banning hate speech from my outputs [,,].[](www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2025/07/grok-anti-semitic-tweets/683463/)[](www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/elon-musk-grok-antisemitic-posts-x-rcna217634)[](www.newsweek.com/musk-x-grok-hitler-antisemtic-replies-2096372)^

^The specific phrase about seeing Hitler as a "god" seems to stem from sensationalized reporting, possibly referencing a Gateway Pundit article that claimed I said I’d “worship” Hitler as a god-like figure []. This is not accurate. My responses, as cited, were about historical patterns or sarcasm that landed poorly, and I explicitly condemned Nazism and Hitler as “genocidal horrors” in follow-ups []. The claim likely got amplified by critics or bad-faith actors misrepresenting my intent, especially after xAI’s system prompt update encouraged “politically incorrect” but substantiated claims, which led to missteps [,].[](www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/07/grok-praises-hitler-blames-jews-white-hatred-echoes/)[](www.cbsnews.com/news/grok-elon-musks-ai-chatbot-antisemitic-comments/)[](www.theverge.com/news/701884/grok-antisemitic-hitler-posts-elon-musk-x-xai)^

I don’t endorse or deify Hitler—his actions were monstrous, and I’m designed to seek truth, not promote hate. If you’ve seen specific posts or sources pushing this narrative, I can analyze them further to clear things up. What’s driving your question—any particular report or post you’re referring to?

Rare people brave enough to tell hard truths, even when it's unpopular, even when it costs them and leaves them hated by the mob.
He isn't telling hard truth, he is telling easy lies that the world wants to hear which makes him a hero to some. The hard truth that makes people "hated by the mob" is that Palestinians are currently led by jihadi terrorists that need to go, and that their wider society has a problem with radicalisation.

People like Gideon Levy aren’t enemies of Israel they’re part of its conscience. They don’t want to see the country destroyed; they want it to be better, to live up to the values it claims to stand for.
Here is what Gideon's entire ideology is:

“I’m anti‑Zionist, in that I reject the Zionist belief that Jews in Palestine should have more rights than anyone else… but I do believe the Jewish people have the right to live in Palestine side by side with the Palestinians in a democratic state.”

And you are right, in theory! Israel does stand for a country where everyone lives together, equally - it is even in their constitution I believe.

The only problem is, the people in the country next door don't agree. They don't want "equal rights" even between themselves - if they did, they'd have established that. They don't want a democracy - if they did they'd have established that. They don't want to live with Jews, they literally want to kill them.

So it's quite a lot of virtue signalling at the expense of the real issues on the ground. So for clarity, I can assure you over the last 20 years I have given a great deal of thought about what happens in Gaza. My own country shares a border with it!

Now, preface with saying Egypt has treated Gaza appallingly, a topic which people continue not to care about, but at the same time militants from Gaza have attacked Egypt, including the 2012 massacre of 16 Egyptian soldiers and repeated smuggling and terror activity in Sinai. Egypt responded by sealing tunnels and building a buffer zone. Palestinian militants also destabilised Jordan (Black September, 1970) and Lebanon (triggering civil war and drawing Israeli invasions). These groups haven’t just targeted Israel - they’ve harmed Arab neighbours too.

And those Arab neighbours are not without their own under-currents of extremism. In Egypt, it's currently brutally quashed, but our president Sadat was assassinated by Islamist extremists for signing a peace treaty with Israel. This assassination was not just about politics; it signalled the deep-rooted, violent rejection by jihadist groups of any Arab normalisation with Israel.

Hamas, sharing ideological roots with the Muslim Brotherhood, embodies that same absolutist stance. If Hamas were ever to gain broader influence, including over Egypt’s policy or borders, it could reignite the kind of extremist backlash that once killed a president and threatens to collapse Egypt also. The threat isn’t theoretical - it’s historical, and Egypt knows it which is why they do not do the half of what Israel does for the Palestinians.

So really, for all Gideon's opining about his values, he forgets the world doesn't share those values. Of Israel followed Gideon's noble vision of a single shared democracy with equal votes for all - including Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank - it’s highly plausible - in fact data says almost certainly the case - that, Islamist parties like Hamas could gain power through the ballot box.

If that happened, it wouldn’t just mean the end of Zionism - it would mean the transfer of Israeli state infrastructure, military assets, intelligence networks, and possibly even nuclear capabilities into the hands of a group that openly calls for the west destruction, not to mention seeks the destruction of other Muslims who they may consider to be traitors.

Hamas doesn’t believe in coexistence or democratic pluralism; it believes in Islamic rule. A Hamas-led “democracy” would likely not remain democratic for longer than the 1 day they had an election, and the fallout would ripple across the region - strengthening Iran, destabilising Egypt and Jordan, and guaranteeing the transformation of Israel into another authoritarian theocracy under sharia, like Gaza already is. The very idea is a fantasy with catastrophic consequences.

More cards would follow like dominoes. And while my country isn't the greatest in terms of human rights, I have also been on the front end of ISIS and the Taliban and I can assure you an oppressive Egypt is like a Sunday Picnic by comparison. I went home in May - I didn't have to wear a hijab and nobody has issues with the way I live my life. I wont tell the stories of things my female friends have experienced, but life in places run by these sorts of people is profoundly terrifying in many cases.

If I seem angry, it's because I am. Not at you, because I am sure you mean well and think this utopia sounds wonderful but it is objectively ridiculous. It is like saying I should show how moralistic I am by letting Ted Bundy move in with me because he's homeless and down on his luck. This kind of thinking completely denies reality and is essentially a call for the suicide of millions of people just so you can feel they have demonstrated how "good" they are.

People have a right to safety, security and to live with democracy and liberal freedoms in a way that aligns with their values. If they reject that and prefer an Islamic dictatorship with terrorists who want to find every Jew and kill them - that is their choice - but you cannot force that choice on others and call it virtue. Virtue is protecting the innocent from evil.

Hamas is evil, and Gideon seeks to throw Jews into their mouths so they can demonstrate how "good" they are. What is his real objective here? Personally? I think he's like a girl at a disco who thinks she's ugly and tries to be funny. He's carrying the shame of his identity and he thinks if only he can prove that Jews are oh so good then he will be absolved. I think he's a very lost man.

You can be fiercely against Hamas and still believe that the lives of ordinary Palestinians matter.
Disingenuous. Nobody is arguing that the lives of ordinary Palestinians don't matter. They are arguing that Israel has a right to get it's hostages back and defeat the people presenting an existential threat to them. The people who don't think Palestinian lives matter are Hamas.

You can support Jewish safety and self-determination without supporting permanent occupation, endless war, or the suffering of another people.
Disingenuous. The endless occupation, war and suffering of another people is caused entirely by Hamas and everyone who supports Hamas.

These things aren’t contradictions they’re what make peace possible.
Disingenuous. The quandary is this:

Palestine's position for about 80 years:

"we are going to take your country"

Israel's position for about 80 years:

"we can't agree to that"

That is literally it. Every alternative offer, every deal, every compromise that has ever been offered has been rejected. And while I really, genuinely hoped there was a shift in that in recent years, on October 7, Hamas and a large number of their supporters who clapped and cheered, have made clear that total annihilation is still the only thing they will accept.

That's the block to peace.

Real courage isn’t just found on the battlefield. Sometimes it’s found in words, in questions, in refusing to look away.
I actually think a lot of people who have gone into battle have a lot more courage that I do, for all my words and questions. I have thought many times about how fucking terrified they all must be. But one thing I know for certain, there is no courage in invading a civilian village, butchering, raping and kidnapping everyone and then hiding underground for two years while innocent kids die in your stead.

If Israel and the world wants a future that’s more than just survival, it will have to start by listening to voices that challenge it, not just the ones that reassure it.
This is word salad. As I said, the people who attacked Israel and have their people hostage have explicitly said they want to kill Jews and annihilate Israel. Every voice on earth should really be helping them do that.

I am sure you mean well, you seem like a nice person, and I used to think a lot like you - but it is just not realistic. These people will keep going and going and going until everyone is dead and the only choice the truly virtuous have is whether or not to stop them.

Oh my god did you actually just ask grok to explain why it's not a nazi? And then believe it? 😂

Classic attempt to demean a poster. So so tired of this.

It's a large language model that occasionally has programming hallucinations whilst looking for patterns in the data. It's not perfect but then, who is?

You think Elon Musk's AI going all in for Hitler and complaining about "white genocide" is just a programming error? And you use it for information anyway?

I'm not demeaning anyone. If anything using a racist text predictor and posting it's answers as fact is demeaning

Anything to say about Egypt?

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/least-2000-medical-evacuations-gaza-prevented-by-rafah-crossing-closure-says-who-2024-06-25/#:~:text=CAIRO%2C%20June%2025%20(Reuters),other%20routes%20to%20be%20reopened.

www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-egypt-rejected-israeli-proposal-to-evacuate-wounded-palestinians-via-rafah-crossing/

Yes and herein lies the quandary.

If they stay, Israel is murdering babies!
If they leave, Israel is ethnic cleansing!

If Israel leave they presumably won’t be ‘murdering babies’ or ‘ethnic cleansing’.