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Conflict in the Middle East

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Israels plan for Gazas future

958 replies

MixedMetals · 07/07/2025 22:40

Defense Minister Israel Katz said Monday that he has instructed the IDF to prepare a plan to establish a "humanitarian city" on the ruins of Rafah, which would eventually house the entire population of the Gaza Strip.

According to Katz, the plan involves moving 600,000 Palestinians, primarily from the al-Muwasi area, into the new zone after security screening. Once inside, residents would not be allowed to leave, the defense minister said.

Katz added that, if conditions permit, construction of the "city" would begin during the 60-day Israel-Hamas cease-fire currently under negotiation.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-07-07/ty-article/.premium/defense-minister-israel-to-concentrate-all-gaza-population-in-rafah-humanitarian-zone/00000197-e56a-d1ad-ab97-e5ef764e0000

Defense minister: Israel to concentrate all Gaza population in Rafah 'humanitarian' zone

***

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-07-07/ty-article/.premium/defense-minister-israel-to-concentrate-all-gaza-population-in-rafah-humanitarian-zone/00000197-e56a-d1ad-ab97-e5ef764e0000

OP posts:
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38
ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 09:43

Jumpupjumphigh · 09/07/2025 07:52

It's most common use that I see currently is to describe the Chinese treatment of the Uyghurs. I don't see any qualifications or apologies for using it when I read about that in a wide range of media.

That is because they actually are concentration camps.

Around two million people were rounded up, largely based on their religion and forced into a camp without due process. Conditions in the camps, according to satellite imagery, leaked documents, and first-hand survivor accounts, include forced political indoctrination, torture, rape, forced sterilisation, family separation, and hard slave labour. They are allowed no contact with the outside world not humanitarian agencies.

If and when Israel does that to Muslims, I will be happy to call it a concentration camp. Until then, what's being proposed (which isn't going to happen anyway) is nothing like this.

Anonimummy · 09/07/2025 09:46

veiledsentiments · 09/07/2025 09:36

UNDER THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION. There you have it.

Have what? Doesn’t mention anything about being kicked out of their house by Jewish refugees back then.

There was no Israeli occupation where he was born. It’s part of Israel. It’s known as the ‘Arab capital of Israel’ so it’s doubtful Jewish refugees took over his family’s house! He was born in November 1948 so after the inception of Israel so his family must have left before he was born.

Twiglets1 · 09/07/2025 09:52

Whatsinanamehey · 09/07/2025 09:43

There were many aspects of this war that people thought were unlikely to go ahead or was just some sort of sick joke. When Trump first mentioned his plan people said it was just a spoof and wouldn't be taken seriously. When the Israelis first said they wanted to clear out northern Gaza, people said it wouldn't really happen but Netanyahu is still insisting on it and only opened aid hubs in the south and centre to push for this.

There are many things people thought would not happen but did.

Trump's plan for a "Gaza Riviera" seems very unlikely to happen now - if anyone develops the land it will more likely be the Egyptian plan.

MixedMetals · 09/07/2025 10:19

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 09:29

My personal take on the plan for a sealed “humanitarian city,” is that the plan is extremely unlikely to go ahead. It faces strong resistance from the Israeli military who warn it would obstruct military objectives and violate international law. Key international mediators have also objected. While elements of the plan may be under discussion, the legal, logistical, and political obstacles - along with Israel’s need for international legitimacy - make its full implementation improbable. I think a lot of ideas and proposals will come forward in the coming weeks and months and people should apply a portion of scepticism to things until there is some kind of unified international statement on it.

But what is certainly true is that whatever is proposed people will be unhappy with. As I said, Gaza is a warzone and people will need to live somewhere. In my view they should be moved out of Gaza for it to be reconstructed, as this is simply best for the population and in particular the children, but many would classify this logical action as "ethnic cleansing". Hopefully at least those who wish to leave will be given that option.

It is simply not true from a human perspective that living on "your land" is the most important thing in life. Speaking from first hand experience, sometimes you can make a better life for your children by getting away from violence.

As I said, Gaza is a warzone and people will need to live somewhere. In my view they should be moved out of Gaza for it to be reconstructed, as this is simply best for the population and in particular the children, but many would classify this logical action as "ethnic cleansing". Hopefully at least those who wish to leave will be given that option.

The issue isn't with people choosing to move to allow Gaza to be rebuilt and then returning to a lovely new shiny Gaza. The issue with people being forced to leave whether that is by literal force or by being locked up in a camp and being told its this or you leave. There is also the huge issue with the lack of trust in Israel, you would surely be a fool to believe that a country whose government openly declare their want for ethnic cleansing and whose voters support this view would allow Palestinians to return once they have left, why would they, they openly want them gone, a lot want them all dead. Not to mention the present situation in the West Bank where people are afraid to leave their homes unattended at all in case an Israeli decides to move in.

It's a lovely idea, off you go for a little bit and come back to lovely new homes but on a list of things that it is never going to happen that has to be right at the top. There is a culture within Israel of settlements and land grabbing, there is no reason to believe with the rapid expansion of violence and settlements in the West Bank that suddenly Israel have changed their mind on this.

OP posts:
ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 10:24

Jumpupjumphigh · 09/07/2025 08:11

There's one important point you're missing though, which is that Israel occupied Gaza in 1967. Hamas only became a thing in the 1990s after decades of appeal to international pressure and negotiation didn't work to end that occupation. Hamas were voted into government by the Gazans because they were the only group perceived as willing to stand up for their rights.

Noone is saying Hamas are good, or even that they're OK. But if you occupy another people's land, deny their right to self determination, destroy their livelihood and brutalize them for long enough, violent religious radicalism is ONE of the reactions that will occur.

Seriously, people make a mockery of this issue by pretending they can just lop the first hundred years or so off the history of it (from the beginnings of the Zionist movement in the 19th century) and date it from the last bad thing that some Palestinians did.

Israel are occupying a land that does not belong to them. In no other place do we just accept that as OK, or blame the inhabitants of the land for the chaos, desperation and violence arising from whatever means they can cobble together to fight against it.

You're repeating a narrative that oversimplifies history and lets Hamas off the hook for deliberate choices. Let's take this point by point:

Yes, Israel captured Gaza in 1967 - from Egypt—in a defensive war started checks notes Egypt. Egypt had occupied Gaza for almost 20 years at that time, and by the way had denied Gazans citizenship, free movement or basically any rights, they were treated really poorly actually by Egypt and keep in mind the context here that Egypt were on their side of the conflict!

Then Nasser ordered UN peacekeepers out of the Sinai Peninsula, which had been a buffer since the 1956 Suez Crisis and closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, and Arab forces from Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq massed on Israel’s borders. If that isn't clear enough, Nasser publicly declared intentions to destroy Israel- “Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel,” he said on May 27, 1967.

Really think that over for a minute and ask what YOUR country would do?

What Israel did was Israel launched a pre-emptive strike against Egypt's air force, destroying it on the ground. Jordan and Syria then attacked Israel, and Israel responded. Israel won that war -decisively and in just six days, during which they took control of Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula, which given what I just described is the least of what any country would do in their own defence!

A key point here is that once they did take control of the Sinai Peninsula they did not reciprocate and use it to attack Egypt - they actually just used it as a buffer zone and then handed it back in exchange for peace. So keep in mind every shred of evidence here shows Israel was acting purely in it's own defence with no aggression and their behavior. Israel is one of very few countries in history to do so: hand back land won in a defensive war in exchange for peace. It's rare because most countries keep land they’ve conquered in war, especially when the war was started by the other side.

Gaza at that time had been under Egyptian occupation with severe oppression for decades. It had no government or organised society! But what Israel did do during this "occupation" that they did not choose was allowed Gazans freedom of movement for the first time - they were allowed to visit Israel, schools were build, hospitals, UNRWA were invited in to develop infrastructure for the Gazan people and tens of thousands of Gazans were given jobs in Israel where wages were 5 - 10 times higher.

Under Egyptian control Gaza was neglected, isolated, and impoverished. After Israel took over roads, water systems, electricity, and hospitals were expanded and upgraded.The first modern hospitals, sewage systems, and reliable electricity came under Israeli civil administration.Trade and agriculture increased due to access to Israeli markets and Israeli investment. By the 1980s, Gaza's economy was growing, and unemployment was relatively low. Israel built schools and improved access to education. Infant mortality rates dropped and life expectancy increased - according to World Bank and UN figures at the time.

What Israel is criticised for was Israeli settlements in Gaza which were established after the war. By the early 2000s, there were 21 settlements in Gaza, home to about 9k Israelis, mainly concentrated in an area calong the southern coast. Though they occupied about 20% of the land, much of it was uninhabited sand dunes or farmland. However, the settlements required large military buffer zones and checkpoints because Gazans unfortunately did kill Jews, which inflamed tensions and created friction with the local Palestinian population.

Now you can look at this however you want to. From the Palestinian perspective, they represented land theft and occupation, especially as Gaza's 1.5 million Palestinians faced overcrowding and poverty. From the Israeli side, the settlements were viewed by some as a legitimate return to ancestral land or a necessary security buffer.

The goal was always stated, which was sufficient stability to be created in Gaza for it to safely govern itself and live as a peaceful neighbour to Israel in which Jews could freely live, as they did in Israel, but instead of that happening the first intifada happened.

Terrorism, extremism, and rejection of peace efforts led to closures, security measures, and decline. That increased security measures and began to reduce the freedoms Gazans had previously had. The Intifada led to the Oslo Accords and Gaza underwent significant changes. The Palestinian Authority was established and given civil and internal security control over most of Gaza, marking the first time Palestinians had self-rule in the territory. Israel partially withdrew its military from urban areas but retained control over borders, airspace, and Jewish settlements. but progress..

Then Hamas came on the scene somewhere in here, absolutely fuming that a two-state solution was being discussed and negotiated and demanded instead that Israel be annihilated and they have it all.

Israel then agreed to completely withdraw from Gaza in 2005. I have read the full withdrawal agreement and it was very fair and was done entirely in the hope that Gazans would self govern and make peace. They removed everything, every soldier and every settlement. Not one Israeli remained and Gazans were given a shot at self-governance fully. Movement in and out was restricted but not fully blocked. Israel still controlled borders, airspace, and waters, but no full blockade was in place. I think it's reasonable to assume if things had gone ahead peacefully that Israel would have withdrawn these last security measures, but sadly things went the other way.

People were hopeful (I remember, I was there!) that there would be peace going forward and someone reasonable would be elected to run Gaza, but Hamas was. And to be clear, when they were elected the Gazans knew full well that Hamas charter called for murdering Jews and that their sole political goal was annihilation of Israel through war and terror and they did actually vote for that.

Hamas didn’t just “rise out of desperation.” They published a charter in 1988 calling for the obliteration of Israel and the murder of Jews worldwide, long before the blockade or 2005 withdrawal. And they weren't elected solely because they stood up for Gazans' rights. what right do you think they offered? None! All they promised was murder.

They were elected in 2006 -one time -and haven't allowed another election since. They’ve violently crushed political rivals, used aid to build terror tunnels instead of infrastructure, and used children and civilians as shields and AFAIK until recently they have had pretty widespread support to the extent my understanding is that Abbas has held off arguing for a WB election because until recent events they were pretty certain Hamas would win a WB election and take control of all Palestinian territory.

So everything here is really just disingenuous. the evidence shows very clearly Israel only "occupies" anything to stop it's own citizens being killed. The border is controlled for security reasons, just as Egypt controls its own border with Gaza - and Egypt keeps it sealed for the same reasons Israel does: Hamas is a terror group that has attacked both.

Right now, I think China is occupying Tibet, Russia occupies Crimea, Turkey occupies Cyprus. Not out of self defence because those places are threats, but just because they want territory and control. Being intellectually honest, I do not count it as "occupation" when the goal is simply to stop a terror group from killing you.

But Hamas is certainly occupying and brutalising its own people. They’ve turned a strip of land that could have thrived into a launchpad for war, prioritising martyrdom over statehood. And even after October 7 - a massacre of civilians, rape, torture, and hostage-taking - many still excuse them as the “understandable reaction” of the oppressed through cherry picking parts of the story.

The true story as I see it is that Israel was given independence and the Arab nations were furious about this largely for reasons that relate to religious supremacy and pan-Arab nationalism. And ever since the Palestinian people have been used as pawns in the battle to undermine Israel. That means they have been denied resettlement, denied citizenship, denied a state (Egypt had 20 years to give them one!) and forced to remain eternal refugees and victims so people can keep up the effort to remove Israel from existence.

Had Egypt given the slightest shit about Palestinians they would have build a beautiful Gaza for them with self-rule and prosperity and they would have encouraged them to prosper. They didn't give two shits, and even today they watched as those kids were locked inside a warzone and refused to even let them out when Israel petitioned them for medical assistance for the wounded or sick.

As for Gaza, they have fallen prey to violent religious radicalism, which is a choice - not an inevitability. The Kurds, Tibetans, and millions of oppressed people have pursued justice without massacring civilians. Hamas chose terror, not resistance. And they did so with support from Iran, not for self-determination, but to create a radical Islamist state.

No one is trying to erase the history of Zionism or the suffering of Palestinians. But history is not a justification for terrorism, and pretending that Israel is uniquely guilty for trying to defend its people against a genocidal enemy is to apply a moral standard you wouldn't apply anywhere else.

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 10:25

MixedMetals · 09/07/2025 10:19

As I said, Gaza is a warzone and people will need to live somewhere. In my view they should be moved out of Gaza for it to be reconstructed, as this is simply best for the population and in particular the children, but many would classify this logical action as "ethnic cleansing". Hopefully at least those who wish to leave will be given that option.

The issue isn't with people choosing to move to allow Gaza to be rebuilt and then returning to a lovely new shiny Gaza. The issue with people being forced to leave whether that is by literal force or by being locked up in a camp and being told its this or you leave. There is also the huge issue with the lack of trust in Israel, you would surely be a fool to believe that a country whose government openly declare their want for ethnic cleansing and whose voters support this view would allow Palestinians to return once they have left, why would they, they openly want them gone, a lot want them all dead. Not to mention the present situation in the West Bank where people are afraid to leave their homes unattended at all in case an Israeli decides to move in.

It's a lovely idea, off you go for a little bit and come back to lovely new homes but on a list of things that it is never going to happen that has to be right at the top. There is a culture within Israel of settlements and land grabbing, there is no reason to believe with the rapid expansion of violence and settlements in the West Bank that suddenly Israel have changed their mind on this.

Edited

Genuine question moving forward. If people have the choice to leave, but nobody will accept them (the current status) then what do you expect to happen to them? Given that the one place they cannot go is Israel?

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 10:31

Whatsinanamehey · 09/07/2025 09:43

There were many aspects of this war that people thought were unlikely to go ahead or was just some sort of sick joke. When Trump first mentioned his plan people said it was just a spoof and wouldn't be taken seriously. When the Israelis first said they wanted to clear out northern Gaza, people said it wouldn't really happen but Netanyahu is still insisting on it and only opened aid hubs in the south and centre to push for this.

There are many things people thought would not happen but did.

If it helps, nothing has happened that I personally did not think would happen. Aside from 7 October. I was not expecting that.

Anonimummy · 09/07/2025 10:37

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 10:24

You're repeating a narrative that oversimplifies history and lets Hamas off the hook for deliberate choices. Let's take this point by point:

Yes, Israel captured Gaza in 1967 - from Egypt—in a defensive war started checks notes Egypt. Egypt had occupied Gaza for almost 20 years at that time, and by the way had denied Gazans citizenship, free movement or basically any rights, they were treated really poorly actually by Egypt and keep in mind the context here that Egypt were on their side of the conflict!

Then Nasser ordered UN peacekeepers out of the Sinai Peninsula, which had been a buffer since the 1956 Suez Crisis and closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, and Arab forces from Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq massed on Israel’s borders. If that isn't clear enough, Nasser publicly declared intentions to destroy Israel- “Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel,” he said on May 27, 1967.

Really think that over for a minute and ask what YOUR country would do?

What Israel did was Israel launched a pre-emptive strike against Egypt's air force, destroying it on the ground. Jordan and Syria then attacked Israel, and Israel responded. Israel won that war -decisively and in just six days, during which they took control of Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula, which given what I just described is the least of what any country would do in their own defence!

A key point here is that once they did take control of the Sinai Peninsula they did not reciprocate and use it to attack Egypt - they actually just used it as a buffer zone and then handed it back in exchange for peace. So keep in mind every shred of evidence here shows Israel was acting purely in it's own defence with no aggression and their behavior. Israel is one of very few countries in history to do so: hand back land won in a defensive war in exchange for peace. It's rare because most countries keep land they’ve conquered in war, especially when the war was started by the other side.

Gaza at that time had been under Egyptian occupation with severe oppression for decades. It had no government or organised society! But what Israel did do during this "occupation" that they did not choose was allowed Gazans freedom of movement for the first time - they were allowed to visit Israel, schools were build, hospitals, UNRWA were invited in to develop infrastructure for the Gazan people and tens of thousands of Gazans were given jobs in Israel where wages were 5 - 10 times higher.

Under Egyptian control Gaza was neglected, isolated, and impoverished. After Israel took over roads, water systems, electricity, and hospitals were expanded and upgraded.The first modern hospitals, sewage systems, and reliable electricity came under Israeli civil administration.Trade and agriculture increased due to access to Israeli markets and Israeli investment. By the 1980s, Gaza's economy was growing, and unemployment was relatively low. Israel built schools and improved access to education. Infant mortality rates dropped and life expectancy increased - according to World Bank and UN figures at the time.

What Israel is criticised for was Israeli settlements in Gaza which were established after the war. By the early 2000s, there were 21 settlements in Gaza, home to about 9k Israelis, mainly concentrated in an area calong the southern coast. Though they occupied about 20% of the land, much of it was uninhabited sand dunes or farmland. However, the settlements required large military buffer zones and checkpoints because Gazans unfortunately did kill Jews, which inflamed tensions and created friction with the local Palestinian population.

Now you can look at this however you want to. From the Palestinian perspective, they represented land theft and occupation, especially as Gaza's 1.5 million Palestinians faced overcrowding and poverty. From the Israeli side, the settlements were viewed by some as a legitimate return to ancestral land or a necessary security buffer.

The goal was always stated, which was sufficient stability to be created in Gaza for it to safely govern itself and live as a peaceful neighbour to Israel in which Jews could freely live, as they did in Israel, but instead of that happening the first intifada happened.

Terrorism, extremism, and rejection of peace efforts led to closures, security measures, and decline. That increased security measures and began to reduce the freedoms Gazans had previously had. The Intifada led to the Oslo Accords and Gaza underwent significant changes. The Palestinian Authority was established and given civil and internal security control over most of Gaza, marking the first time Palestinians had self-rule in the territory. Israel partially withdrew its military from urban areas but retained control over borders, airspace, and Jewish settlements. but progress..

Then Hamas came on the scene somewhere in here, absolutely fuming that a two-state solution was being discussed and negotiated and demanded instead that Israel be annihilated and they have it all.

Israel then agreed to completely withdraw from Gaza in 2005. I have read the full withdrawal agreement and it was very fair and was done entirely in the hope that Gazans would self govern and make peace. They removed everything, every soldier and every settlement. Not one Israeli remained and Gazans were given a shot at self-governance fully. Movement in and out was restricted but not fully blocked. Israel still controlled borders, airspace, and waters, but no full blockade was in place. I think it's reasonable to assume if things had gone ahead peacefully that Israel would have withdrawn these last security measures, but sadly things went the other way.

People were hopeful (I remember, I was there!) that there would be peace going forward and someone reasonable would be elected to run Gaza, but Hamas was. And to be clear, when they were elected the Gazans knew full well that Hamas charter called for murdering Jews and that their sole political goal was annihilation of Israel through war and terror and they did actually vote for that.

Hamas didn’t just “rise out of desperation.” They published a charter in 1988 calling for the obliteration of Israel and the murder of Jews worldwide, long before the blockade or 2005 withdrawal. And they weren't elected solely because they stood up for Gazans' rights. what right do you think they offered? None! All they promised was murder.

They were elected in 2006 -one time -and haven't allowed another election since. They’ve violently crushed political rivals, used aid to build terror tunnels instead of infrastructure, and used children and civilians as shields and AFAIK until recently they have had pretty widespread support to the extent my understanding is that Abbas has held off arguing for a WB election because until recent events they were pretty certain Hamas would win a WB election and take control of all Palestinian territory.

So everything here is really just disingenuous. the evidence shows very clearly Israel only "occupies" anything to stop it's own citizens being killed. The border is controlled for security reasons, just as Egypt controls its own border with Gaza - and Egypt keeps it sealed for the same reasons Israel does: Hamas is a terror group that has attacked both.

Right now, I think China is occupying Tibet, Russia occupies Crimea, Turkey occupies Cyprus. Not out of self defence because those places are threats, but just because they want territory and control. Being intellectually honest, I do not count it as "occupation" when the goal is simply to stop a terror group from killing you.

But Hamas is certainly occupying and brutalising its own people. They’ve turned a strip of land that could have thrived into a launchpad for war, prioritising martyrdom over statehood. And even after October 7 - a massacre of civilians, rape, torture, and hostage-taking - many still excuse them as the “understandable reaction” of the oppressed through cherry picking parts of the story.

The true story as I see it is that Israel was given independence and the Arab nations were furious about this largely for reasons that relate to religious supremacy and pan-Arab nationalism. And ever since the Palestinian people have been used as pawns in the battle to undermine Israel. That means they have been denied resettlement, denied citizenship, denied a state (Egypt had 20 years to give them one!) and forced to remain eternal refugees and victims so people can keep up the effort to remove Israel from existence.

Had Egypt given the slightest shit about Palestinians they would have build a beautiful Gaza for them with self-rule and prosperity and they would have encouraged them to prosper. They didn't give two shits, and even today they watched as those kids were locked inside a warzone and refused to even let them out when Israel petitioned them for medical assistance for the wounded or sick.

As for Gaza, they have fallen prey to violent religious radicalism, which is a choice - not an inevitability. The Kurds, Tibetans, and millions of oppressed people have pursued justice without massacring civilians. Hamas chose terror, not resistance. And they did so with support from Iran, not for self-determination, but to create a radical Islamist state.

No one is trying to erase the history of Zionism or the suffering of Palestinians. But history is not a justification for terrorism, and pretending that Israel is uniquely guilty for trying to defend its people against a genocidal enemy is to apply a moral standard you wouldn't apply anywhere else.

Thankfully there’s finally someone who knows what they’re talking about on here and can express it very succinctly as well!

Bravo 👏🏻

MixedMetals · 09/07/2025 10:38

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 10:25

Genuine question moving forward. If people have the choice to leave, but nobody will accept them (the current status) then what do you expect to happen to them? Given that the one place they cannot go is Israel?

I would expect Israel to allow aid organisations full access and allow the passage of aid and building materials into Gaza and that eventually some form of life could resume. What alternative is there?

In an ideal world more people would have spoken up a long time ago when it became clear that Israel were destroying Gaza piece by piece, home by home, hospital by hospital etc. They said at the start of the conflict that this was their plan. You only have to look at aerial footage of Gaza to see the wanton destruction they have caused. Hamas were never in all of those homes, never in the all of that land used for crops, it's an impossibility. The IDF have filmed themselves leisurely bulldozing homes and crops and setting fire to buildings. Instead people stayed quiet until it happened. Just like people now are saying they don't think this plan is worth talking about until it happens.

Sitting here now and saying well we let Israel destroy the place, might as well let Israel move them all on because there is nothing left there now 🤷🏻‍♀️ Well that's just what Israel were hoping would happen all along. Congrats that's how ethnic cleansing is enabled.

OP posts:
Anonimummy · 09/07/2025 10:46

MixedMetals · 09/07/2025 10:19

As I said, Gaza is a warzone and people will need to live somewhere. In my view they should be moved out of Gaza for it to be reconstructed, as this is simply best for the population and in particular the children, but many would classify this logical action as "ethnic cleansing". Hopefully at least those who wish to leave will be given that option.

The issue isn't with people choosing to move to allow Gaza to be rebuilt and then returning to a lovely new shiny Gaza. The issue with people being forced to leave whether that is by literal force or by being locked up in a camp and being told its this or you leave. There is also the huge issue with the lack of trust in Israel, you would surely be a fool to believe that a country whose government openly declare their want for ethnic cleansing and whose voters support this view would allow Palestinians to return once they have left, why would they, they openly want them gone, a lot want them all dead. Not to mention the present situation in the West Bank where people are afraid to leave their homes unattended at all in case an Israeli decides to move in.

It's a lovely idea, off you go for a little bit and come back to lovely new homes but on a list of things that it is never going to happen that has to be right at the top. There is a culture within Israel of settlements and land grabbing, there is no reason to believe with the rapid expansion of violence and settlements in the West Bank that suddenly Israel have changed their mind on this.

Edited

Lack of trust in Israel?

After Palestinians invaded Israel, slaughtered, raped, tortured. Injured, and kidnapped thousands of Israelis including babies and children and 80 + year olds. Some of those who’d helped them get medical treatment and invited into their homes while they worked with them.

Yeah, I might not trust a country we’d done that to, then celebrated it, paraded their dead bodies round on camera while spitting and hitting them. Still holding hostages and bodies of those we’d slaughtered as well.

Hmmm………

Insanityisnotastrategy · 09/07/2025 10:48

would allow Palestinians to return once they have left, why would they, they openly want them gone, a lot want them all dead.

@MixedMetals

I genuinely wasn’t sure whether you were talking about Israelis or Palestinians here.

Katiesaidthat · 09/07/2025 10:49

ForgesOfEmpires · 08/07/2025 14:37

In concentration camps, Jews were taken in their hundreds of thousands from their homes all over Europe for the purpose of being imprisoned or murdered as a way of ensuring their race ceased to exist.

All their possessions were taken from them, they were in most cases ripped from their family and forced to live in overcrowded, disease-ridden barracks, starved to the edge of death - and often beyond it.

I’m sure you’ve seen the photographs of their skeletal bodies. About 1 million starved to death.

Beatings, torture, forced labour, and arbitrary execution were routine. Many camps, like Auschwitz, weren’t just prisons - they were factories of death, where gas chambers and crematoria were used to murder thousands daily. Prisoners were stripped of their names, identities, and dignity, reduced to numbers in a system designed to erase their very existence.

So no - this does not “walk like a duck.”

It does not act like a duck.

Calling Gaza a concentration camp is not just a false comparison - it’s Holocaust reductionism at best, and at worst, a deeply calculated insult that tries to equate Jews with those who exterminated them.

I really hope when people do this it's accidental - like a kind of thoughtlessness where they're expressing their frustration by trying to use the worst words and language they can, but I think they need to reflect that they are twisting the knife in the deepest wound of Jewish history.

Yes, life in Gaza is difficult. But in concentration camps, people didn’t go home to their families at night. They didn’t attend school, university, or weddings. They didn’t have houses, malls, cafés, or beaches. They didn’t swim in pools or go for a day at the beach. They didn't have graduation ceremonies or poster on their walls. They languished in filth, starved, and were systematically destroyed.

I really hope you and anyone reading this can take this on board. It really pains me to read these sorts of things. I am not Jewish, but I got my degree in Genocide Studies and spent a very, very long time reading the horrors of the Holocaust and I do not feel there is any comparison of any kind to be made.

"Life in Gaza is difficult"...understatement of the century...

Anonimummy · 09/07/2025 10:51

MixedMetals · 09/07/2025 10:38

I would expect Israel to allow aid organisations full access and allow the passage of aid and building materials into Gaza and that eventually some form of life could resume. What alternative is there?

In an ideal world more people would have spoken up a long time ago when it became clear that Israel were destroying Gaza piece by piece, home by home, hospital by hospital etc. They said at the start of the conflict that this was their plan. You only have to look at aerial footage of Gaza to see the wanton destruction they have caused. Hamas were never in all of those homes, never in the all of that land used for crops, it's an impossibility. The IDF have filmed themselves leisurely bulldozing homes and crops and setting fire to buildings. Instead people stayed quiet until it happened. Just like people now are saying they don't think this plan is worth talking about until it happens.

Sitting here now and saying well we let Israel destroy the place, might as well let Israel move them all on because there is nothing left there now 🤷🏻‍♀️ Well that's just what Israel were hoping would happen all along. Congrats that's how ethnic cleansing is enabled.

Edited

Err tunnels! Hundreds of miles of them. Mines. IEDs, booby trapped streets.

What did you expect the IDF to do about them? Leave them?

I find it unbelievably obtuse that people who obviously have no idea about the realities of warfare (especially in the unprecedented conditions in Gaza), feel free to give their opinions.

Would you expect Hamas to be left as well?

Anonimummy · 09/07/2025 10:52

Katiesaidthat · 09/07/2025 10:49

"Life in Gaza is difficult"...understatement of the century...

It’s something called a WAR.

Have you never heard of it before?

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 10:58

MixedMetals · 09/07/2025 10:38

I would expect Israel to allow aid organisations full access and allow the passage of aid and building materials into Gaza and that eventually some form of life could resume. What alternative is there?

In an ideal world more people would have spoken up a long time ago when it became clear that Israel were destroying Gaza piece by piece, home by home, hospital by hospital etc. They said at the start of the conflict that this was their plan. You only have to look at aerial footage of Gaza to see the wanton destruction they have caused. Hamas were never in all of those homes, never in the all of that land used for crops, it's an impossibility. The IDF have filmed themselves leisurely bulldozing homes and crops and setting fire to buildings. Instead people stayed quiet until it happened. Just like people now are saying they don't think this plan is worth talking about until it happens.

Sitting here now and saying well we let Israel destroy the place, might as well let Israel move them all on because there is nothing left there now 🤷🏻‍♀️ Well that's just what Israel were hoping would happen all along. Congrats that's how ethnic cleansing is enabled.

Edited

Frankly I do not know enough about what's involved in reconstruction to know what is safe or correct, but I trust that international agencies will establish this at the end of the war which I hope will come soon

I have more question for you

  1. Do you honestly believe that Israel - a country where 2 million Arab Muslims (Palestinians) live as citizens - is pursuing ethnic cleansing of Arab Palestinians? Or is it more likely that, after 80 years of facing repeated attacks from groups aligned with Iran and other Islamist terror proxies, Israel is simply exhausted and trying to protect its people from ongoing threats?

  2. Do you believe that a version of Gaza that is damaged by war, will produce a more stable environment for Palestinians than was there pre-war? One that rejects terrorism, or do you feel they will dust themselves off and attack Israel again leading to another war down the road?

  3. Do you believe that Israel withdrawing settlements from the west bank would bring peace? Given that withdrawing settlements from Gaza led to it becoming a terror state that ultimately led to tend of thousands of brutal deaths?

  4. Do you believe that if Israel and Egypt remove the blockade that Hamas and other groups will just say "thanks" and build a peaceful state, or do you think they will import weapons and fire them at Tel Aviv?

  5. Do you believe that if the blockade was removed, that groups (or what remains) like the IRGC, Hexbollah, Huthis and even more distant proxies like China and Russia and so on would provide weapons to groups like Hamas? What kind of weapons?

  6. Do you believe that Jewish people have a right to live safely, securely and independently in Israel and the areas of their historic connection such as Jerusalem equal to Palestinians? And if so, how do you propose they do this other than in their own state? Given that the most popular leadership in the region openly calls for death to Jews worldwide?

These are really just some of the important questions. Presumably if a person fundamentally agreed that Jews have the same right of self determination as Palestinians, then where you come to rest is that they must have their own state and whilst Palestinians openly pose an existential threat they must defend themselves.

Then where you will come to eventually, is that even if Israel is perfect and does everything right, that isn't going to bring peace against a population that broadly wants you dead and is willing largely to kill their own people to get that.

So for me, what's important in terms of what happens next after the war, where people live is a lot less important that how we get to a place where Palestinian people and Palestinian leadership just simply don't want to kill anymore and would prefer to get on with compromise and living. For Israel, I can see a path to them changing whatever needs to be changed to get there, but for Palestinians I do not yet see it.

And that. fundamentally THAT rather than where they live, is what will curse their children to a life of violence, terror and misery.

nearlylovemyusername · 09/07/2025 11:15

@ForgesOfEmpires

Excellent post.

To quote Golda Meir: "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us"

Tooblondetooyoung · 09/07/2025 11:18

nearlylovemyusername · 09/07/2025 11:15

@ForgesOfEmpires

Excellent post.

To quote Golda Meir: "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us"

Back to 'look what they made us do'. We don't stand for that with abusers, and we won't here either.

Anonimummy · 09/07/2025 11:20

nearlylovemyusername · 09/07/2025 11:15

@ForgesOfEmpires

Excellent post.

To quote Golda Meir: "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us"

The first bit is of that quote is even more poignant today:

"When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons."

Anonimummy · 09/07/2025 11:22

TBF those quotes were from before the rise of Palestinian terrorism. It’s not been only sons, as in soldiers, killed since then.

Whatsinanamehey · 09/07/2025 11:23

Anonimummy · 09/07/2025 11:20

The first bit is of that quote is even more poignant today:

"When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons."

What a load of racist shit.

dairydebris · 09/07/2025 11:28

Tooblondetooyoung · 09/07/2025 11:18

Back to 'look what they made us do'. We don't stand for that with abusers, and we won't here either.

It's such a shame to see insightful, informative and questioning posts responded to with such lazy, dismissive slogans like this.

Tooblondetooyoung · 09/07/2025 11:30

dairydebris · 09/07/2025 11:28

It's such a shame to see insightful, informative and questioning posts responded to with such lazy, dismissive slogans like this.

It's not lazy. I'm just sick of victim blaming, and the quote you mentioned froths with racist victim blaming. It's disgusting and needs to be called out.

Anonimummy · 09/07/2025 11:42

Whatsinanamehey · 09/07/2025 11:23

What a load of racist shit.

How is it racist?

At that time Meir was referring to the wars against Israel started by the surrounding Arab countries. So she was stating facts!

Do you honestly not think Palestinian terrorism has any bearing on the current war and the previous 50 years of conflict?

I wonder if you will even answer the above question?

The majority of Palestinians are Arabs.

Palestinian Arabs have carried out most, if not all (not sure if the few Palestinian Christians have been involved? ) of the terrorist attacks against Israelis.

Facts are not racist.

dairydebris · 09/07/2025 11:44

Tooblondetooyoung · 09/07/2025 11:30

It's not lazy. I'm just sick of victim blaming, and the quote you mentioned froths with racist victim blaming. It's disgusting and needs to be called out.

Here you are using the slogan 'victim blaming' to shut down the conversation instead of answering the posters thoughtful questions. It's lazy.

If you feel its victim blaming, answer the questions asked, point out where the poster is blaming the victims, and offer your alternative narrative using historical facts and your own opinions. Thats not lazy.

I've been on the these boards long enough to see people refusing to engage with the harder questions- of which there are many- and it is such a shame.

nearlylovemyusername · 09/07/2025 11:48

Tooblondetooyoung · 09/07/2025 11:30

It's not lazy. I'm just sick of victim blaming, and the quote you mentioned froths with racist victim blaming. It's disgusting and needs to be called out.

Victim blaming -do you mean blaming Israel? because I can't recall any news talking about Israelis killing, torturing, raping, kidnapping Palestinians on 7th October