European Commission President days Iran shouldn't have nuclear weapons. Israel has right to defend itself

[Nowayyousure]

"European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen said she told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday that diplomacy was ultimately best on Iran, but stopped short of calling for an immediate ceasefire.

Von der Leyen said that she agreed with Netanyahu in a telephone call that "Iran should not have a nuclear weapon, without any question."

Von der Leyen has previously criticised Israel's actions in Gaza, but said that Iran's non-compliance with the UN nuclear watchdog meant Israel "has the right to defend itself".

"Iran is the principal source of regional instability," she added."

I just can't take this seriously. Sorry.

No @SomeWomanSomewhere I would not be screaming blue murder if someone suggested assassinating Netanyahu.

I am not a fan of his though I hope and expect that he will be removed from power at the next democratic election in Israel rather than being assassinated.

Please do not assume all pro Israel people are the same. We are all different and while some MN posters may admire Netanyahu, I don't believe many of us do. In any case, I have not heard many pro Israel people sing his virtues on these threads, but if some have that's because we are not all the same.

That makes me feel both a little reassured but still alarmed.

Because I fucking hate the guy with a burning passion - but I would be opposed to having him assassinated. I DO want him arrested and in The Hague.

And, yes, I know very well that neither all pro-Israel folks nor all Israelis are the same. Somewhere on this forum I have actually posted what turned me pro-Palestine: it was seeing the West Bank with my own eyes at a time when I would have been in Tel Aviv for work every few weeks, working with an Israeli partner firm.

Still cannot get behind "assassination as an international relations method", though.

I've seen quite a few posts on here wishing Netanyahu gets assassinated. No screaming blue murder.

I don't think Netanyahu will be assassinated. I think he will have to answer for the decisions he made during the war after the war. As will other key players. It's not for us on MN to decide who will be arrested for war crimes or who won't but I would like to think a full investigation will be carried out after the war.

You say that I know very well that neither all pro-Israel folks nor all Israelis are the same.

Yet you made an assumption about me that was false based on an assumption that I would admire Netanyahu. I've never said that so I honestly think you just made the assumption based on what another pro Israel person said.

No, I genuinely underestimated how unphased you say you would be about "assassination as a policy tool". In that sense: if it helps, I did assume that - because I genuinely never heard anyone advocate for it in an even remotely universalist sense.

We will not see common ground here - I still think it would be catastrophic because I do not want to live in a world where "random foreign power assassinates leader of another" is normal. Far too destabilising for my liking.

But, yes, I did assume that ... because I genuinely have never come across a position that just thinks "this is fine".

No one has the right to take anyone else's life imo. So I would not support assassination I would want justice and retribution not death, where's the justice in that?

Would you also like to see Tony Blair arrested for the 2003 invasion of Iraq? Seemingly on much more tenuous grounds that BN has. Or is it just the fact that it is Israel that makes it much worse somehow.

👏 👏

Yes, I think he should have been. I even remember watching on the news how someone attempted a citizens arrest on him for war crimes 😅

I wasn't on mumsnet at the time, i don't even know if mumsnet was around then but there were many people who thought he should have been trialled for war crimes after the invasion of Iraq.

Personally? Yes! Absolutely!

Realistically? There obviously needs to be evidence that makes this feasible. I would absolutely welcome an investigation by the ICC into whether he could personally tied to something that is a specific violation. And, yes, the ICC, not "we investigate ourselves".

Netanyahu made it easy because he insists on bragging about his crimes. If I were his lawyer I suspect I'd be in constant hypertensive crisis.

Blair doesn't - but there is good reason to believe that, e.g. he must have been aware of the "dodgy" in the dossier. So ... yes, please! Investigate him and, if possible: indicted and try him! It's been two decades so I don't remember all the details.

How would that not obviously be my position?

I think a fair few were aghast he was knighted instead.

There was a petition at the time.

😆 🤣

Are you British? There was very fierce backlash by the British public against Blair both during and after the invasion. Many considered him a war criminal. The marches and protests at the time were huge.

Can confirm! I signed that one ...

Same 😬

Yes. I remember. I was trying to understand the poster’s position on BN and whether it extended to other world leaders or just BN.

She also mentioned China - which imo has the worst human rights records of all. TBH / I can’t think of a world leader of any populous country who might not come under attack for some decisions. It just feels on social media - that somehow BN and Israel are held to a much much higher bar of accountability than others. He certainly seems to attract a lot more viceral hate.

I think you are being disingenuous with your response to me @SomeWomanSomewhere because you specifically singled out Netanyahu as the world leader you assumed I would "be screaming blue murder" about if someone posted they hoped would get assassinated.

I'm not advocating for Netanyahu to get assassinated. As I said above, I expect that he will be removed from power at the next democratic election in Israel rather than being assassinated. But neither would I be screaming blue murder if someone suggested he should be.

There has been many attempts of carrying out a citizens arrest on Blair, not just in the UK either.

You would often here people shouting and calling him a war criminal when he made public appearances.

I never said you were advocating for BN to be assassinated. You made it abundantly clear that you thought he - your phrasing - "will not be" but also: my initial critique was me (admittedly: wrongly as per your later posts) assuming you would be upset if someone called for it. You said you would not take issue. That is consistent and I respect said consistency. While also maintaining that, on the grounds of not only but primarily systemic ramifications, I remain firmly "anti assassination as policy".

@tramtracks, yes, yes, I know: UK good, USA good. Israel good. Iran bad. China bad.

But this is PRECISELY what I am trying to argue here the whole time: Do you think that, somewhere in Beijing, chairman Xi is currently going "MWAHAHAHAHA ... today I shall do more evil!!!"?

Obviously not! They think WE are the baddies!

And Europe - even as a block, even the EU, never mind good old Blighty post Brexit is at best a middling power.

These "fine if we do it - but noone else" type policies assume we are still junior partners, or stakeholders, in a global hegemony. We are not! And it would be the sane and wise thing to do what is in the actual strategic interest of middling powers: advocate for universal standards - because these literally protect us all.

Talking about non existence WMD...

Nuclear watchdog says Iran was not trying to build weapon
The nuclear watchdog does not believe Iran was trying to develop a nuclear weapon, its chief tells Sky News.
"We came to the conclusion we could not affirm there is any systematic effort in Iran at the moment to manufacture a nuclear weapon," says Rafael Grossi, director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).
He tells lead world news presenter Yalda Hakim the IAEA's report, which has been widely cited by Israel, found Iran is enriching 60% uranium, the only country in the world doing that, so "there were elements for concern".
"But as to saying they are building and manufacturing a nuclear weapon - no, we didn't say that."

And hiding them deep deep underground. No one goes to the bother of enriching Uranium to that level unless for developing a nuclear weapon.It’s a completely incomparable situation to the 2003 Iraq one.

@SomeWomanSomewhere I don’t believe/agree with cultural relativism. I know this doesn’t sit well with some - but I do believe- yes - that western values have allowed me to voice my opinion, life my life freely, have an education, raise my daughter to believe she has equal opportunity and has choice over her sexuality and religion. I support our right to defend ourselves and this includes Israel’s.

I am not arguing on moral terms at all (which is not at all the same thing as claiming that I do not have personal moral stances [I do] or political opinions [only about one gazillion].

I am trying to convey that ... "but we are right, though, and the good guys" is not a serious strategic position. Also, that the people "we" posit are the bad guys think of "us" as equally as evil.

You can get away with pretending all your interventions are driven by morals - if and when you happen to be a unipolar hegemony.

This has largely been the case for the USA (and its hangers on - that includes us, by the way!) since the end of the USSR.

And it just no longer is. The relative power of the US is shrinking. We are multipolar now. Or about to be. And "America will always have our back" is no longer a reliable framework in a world where Donald Trump refuses to exclude military power to "get" Greenland.

What I am saying is not "the good guys should win" or "the bad guys must never win" but "this is just fundamentally not how geopolitics works".

What you are arguing for is, more or less, "offensive realism as per Mearsheimer et al. - but do let us gaslight ourselves into believing we do it on moral grounds".

What I am arguing for is essentially: "do let us attempt liberal IR because ... liberal IR sucks at analysis but is a lot less scary than realism if put into practice"