Can someone explain Islamophobia to me?

[BaMamma]

I don't think I have an irrational fear of Muslims, but I think I have a reasonable concern about radical Islam, does that make me Islamophobic?

I'm not objecting to them being Muslim, I'm objecting to them being covered because I don't know who's under there.

As far as non-Muslim's covering their faces, who, where, and why?

I hardly ever see Muslim women with covered faces.

I don't think I've said you were objecting to Muslim women covering their faces being Muslim.

Well, in major cities near me, people wearing face coverings include: young people (maybe international students, I don't know, but lots around universities), older people (eg in retail areas), people on various marches, people out 'celebrating' football related activities, the 'young teams', etc. Different methods of face covering, and different reasons - some totally benign and some clearly not.

There aren't huge numbers of Muslim women in the UK wearing burqas or even niqab.

Oh, I forgot all the people who use snoods and scarves to cover the lower parts of their faces due to cold. Not a big issue at the moment, but common in the winter.

I agree the niqab/ burqa is not a big issue and a far greater proportion of face coverage is due to snoods, face masks , boys on bikes with hoodies covering their face etc .
I do think faces should not be covered at all ( apart from medical masks in indoor settings if there is risk of infection)

Edited to add - I completely respect the reasoning given and as a religious person I do understand that it could feel a way of showing devotion to God rather than to worldly things

Who do you think is under there? Why would seeing their faces make you believe you know them @BaMamma?

Many non Muslims cover their faces. I live close to an Asian community in my city, they, along with cyclists are the most likely to wear face coverings.

Oh yes, lots of cyclists here use face coverings too.

On the subject of face covering, as someone who lipreads I find it a challenge. I am less likely to interact easily with someone whose face I can't see.

I was also relieved to lose the face masks after Covid because full ppe is uncomfortable to work in, we used to refer to taking off our masks as an airgasm.
Cyclists who wear filter masks probably find it quite a relief to breathe freely and cool off without them too.

What do people think of elderly people who still wear face masks on the bus? Or cyclists? Or motorbike drivers?

I’ve noticed covering your face is a lot more acceptable since Covid actually- as long as you aren’t Muslim of course.

I think that all face coverings should be prohibited unless they are for health reasons.
My understanding is that there is no religious requirement for Muslim women to cover their face.

I’m much more likely to feel confident about communicating/ approaching someone if I can see their face.
For me , if women are veiled or young men are wearing scarves over their faces it’s much harder for me to see them as individuals.
It’s not religious prejudice it’s a desire to identify with the individual.
I fully accept that’s it’s only a tiny proportion of people who cover faces who are Muslim women.
I’m uncomfortable with all face covering

How would you define a health reason? Like would someone wearing a mask have to carry a medical certificate?

would you want the elderly people, scooter boys, cyclists and Muslim women arrested if they are wearing a face covering? Or how exactly would you like it policed?

What about wrapping a scarf up around your face so it only shows your eyes? This is common with the scooter contingent. Tricky to define as it’s just a scarf?

Muslim men don't wear veils and this is telling as the reason for veils is to stop any other make (or female) deeming the person attractive. This is control. It's a mediaeval concept to think that any interaction between a male and female always involves sexual attraction of the woman is visible. It shows to my mind an utter lack of trust in the women as well with the implicit suggestion that by simply wearing standard western attire they are somehow 'enticing' men.

I don't think we should encourage misogyny like this simply because we are afraid to critique religion.

Yes - exactly. I think you should have to carry a medical exemption note for covering your face in public.
I think it should be policed via fines similar to parking offences etc .

For me this is not really an issue about Muslim women. I don’t feel they are the real problem. But I don’t think face coverage should be allowed.

Anti-Muslim prejudice, discrimination and hate affects Muslims across a wide spectrum of degrees of practice, political views, clothing styles, etc.

As we experience this significant increase in the levels of anti-Muslim prejudice, discrimination and hate, what has the government done?

Well, they've pulled funding from one of the major charitable organisations supporting Muslims experiencing this harm.

That was nice of them.

It's certainly not Muslim women being a problem but a culture which promotes it. A woman has been brought up to think it is shameful to display her face in public and I think we have a right to criticise that view point in an open society that supports women. The problem for me is that it is in reality not a free decision for women to wear a veil but one that is imposed by a patriarchal culture surrounding the woman. It is men making the decisions.

But a lot of secular practices could be criticised according to that logic. Women who have breast implants, Botox or lip fillers are making a "choice" into which they have been brainwashed by our patriarchal society, particularly since it's usually the less intelligent/ educated women who do so. Do they make you uncomfortable, or is it only brown-skinned women's choices you have an issue with?

Then why do so few Muslim women actually cover their faces?

And if this is such a big part of why people have anti-Muslim views, why is so much anti-Muslim prejudice, discrimination and hate directed towards women who don't cover their faces and men who don't want to force women to do anything?

People have assumptions about Muslims, Muslim men, Muslim women, but I suspect many people's assumptions are quite far from what reality is for many Muslims.

But yet again, the very wide-ranging harms of anti-Muslim prejudice, discrimination and hate are narrowed down to face coverings and men trying to control women. Many people cover their faces. Only a small number of those people cover their faces as part of practising Islam. Men have tried to control women since records began and probably before that, and continue to do so today, across pretty much every society in the world, from the USA to Afghanistan to Japan. Here on Mumsnet, we read hundreds of threads and posts about men controlling women, not doing their fair share, etc. - from people of all backgrounds and faiths. It's a problem with men, not solely with Muslim men. And neither issue is really justification for causing discrimination, psychological and physical harm to people simply because they happen to be Muslim.

When people engage in anti-Muslim prejudice, discrimination and hate towards me, or my husband, or my DC, they don't stop and check our views on face covering or women's rights before they do.

I mean I think all the main religions are essentially misogynistic. Religion has been constructed and controlled by men. that is one of the many reasons that I do not partake myself, and my children have no religion at all. It would be a cold day in hell before I join my daughters up to an organisation where they could never take a leadership role due to their sex.

i don’t think saying or thinking that make me anti anyone. I am not anti the individuals in any religion and I will take them as I find them. You can give some constructive criticism to any religion without being anti those believers but you aren’t really doing that. You seem mainly concerned with women dressing modestly whether they chose to do it or not. And somehow it is “encouraging” it if we don’t demonise it.

I think we should start at a point where we primarily protect a women’s right to wear what she wants. This is very important. If women want to wear a headscarf or a cross or whatever as an outward sign of their belief well I won’t be criticising them.

I’m very sorry you’re experiencing anti Muslim prejudice. I think conflicts across the world affect minority groups in all sorts of ways. I’m very conscious of how it felt as a London Irish person living in London before the peace process. It was uncomfortable and we all felt conflicted. We hated the terrorists and the violence but we also hated the anti Irish prejudice.
I imagine Muslim communities are experiencing a similar conflict.

This is a very important point. Very few Muslim women actually cover their faces. I read an article that was saying as few as 300 women in Belgium were covering their faces and they banned it. I just feel so uncomfortable with a law that targets this very small number of women who are already, I feel, on the margins of society. It’s not a law designed to help them.

i can’t see any reason for it other than to make people be “other”

I do a volunteer job that takes me into the residents of people who are vulnerable in some way. Some of these people are asylum seekers. I met a Palestinian family the other day and the Dad was running the whole show, taking care of 5 kids, doing all the house stuff, and doing it so well, but it is because his wife has taken to her bed for weeks after losing her whole extended family in Gaza. My Volunteer colleagues and I had a conversation afterwards about how impressive he was but also how we are also basically sexist as we meet women who do this every day and we don’t bat an eyelid.

I’ve also met completely men of every religion who are just useless and wouldn’t get away with it as a female parent basically. It is definitely a man problem.

Banning face coverings is not a way of targeting Muslim women.
As has been said very few Muslim women cover their face and it’s not a requirement of their religion.
Banning face coverings would apply to a wide range of people- only a small minority of whom are Muslim.

Edited to respond to
” I can’t see any reason for it other than to make people be “other”
Totally covering your face is the biggest statement you can make that you want to be seen as “other”

Totally covering your face is the biggest statement you can make that you want to be seen as “other”

That’s a very good point.
Covering your face even though your religion doesn’t require that and in a country where it doesn’t align with the local customs does make you come across as someone who wants to make a point, who wants to stand out.
Fwiw, I grew up in a city with a large Muslim population, saw plenty of women wearing hijabs (often in combination with casual Western clothing), also women not wearing them, but back then I never saw anyone with a face covering.

In Islam different actions fall under different categories. Whilst the face covering is not Fard (obligatory) some schools of thought including the ones I follow consider it to be wajib - which is the category that comes just under Fard. By all means disagree with the concept of the face veil if you must, but please keep in mind that there are many different Muslims with differing levels of observance and I don't think those who are not should try to explain to Muslims, rulings about their own religion.