Can someone explain Islamophobia to me?

[BaMamma]

I don't think I have an irrational fear of Muslims, but I think I have a reasonable concern about radical Islam, does that make me Islamophobic?

Tony Martin didn't write The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews, it was an antisemitic conspiracy theory and trope-ridden tome produced by the Nation of Islam that he encouraged his students to read.

Tony Martin self-published his own antisemitic conspiracy theory and trope-ridden tome called The Jewish Onslaught. He was also quite keen on Holocaust denial.

OchaLove, I generally find your posts to be interesting and thoughtful so it's disappointing that the response to a mention of the Muslim slave trade is to immediately deflect and suggest (erroneously) that actually Jews were worse because they dominated/controlled it all and citing a widely condemned and debunked, deeply antisemitic work compiled by an organisation that frequently foments hatred against Jews as some sort of authority or credible source. Henry Louis Gates Jr, Head of the Harvard Afro-American Dept called the book "the Bible of new antisemitism".

Couldn't edit, that should've said Henry Louis Gates Jr, Head of the Harvard Afro-American Studies Dept.

The man who gave a talk about "the tactics of organised Jewry" to a bunch on holocaust deniers was shut down for antisemitism? Too fucking right he was.

Yes, you are right, Tony Martin didn't write the book but seems like he promoted it. I knew what I write would be triggering. But think about it in reverse, the poster I replied claimed that Muslims were the slave traders, they introduced the slave trade. Why doesn't this trigger you or others? Don't you think this creates hatred against Muslims? Do we have double standards when it comes to creating hatred? Why saying this version is okay but the other version is unacceptable? Where is the evidence to that posters' claims? But in a way you're right, my example used antisemitic figures, so may not be acceptable. But as a counter argument I'll add another article that objects to these claims. This is an article from a Jewish source, they accept that 75% of southern Jewish families in USA owned slaves and some of the slave trade ships belonged to Jews. When we have these facts, how fair is it to blame only one side about slavery?

Also, the poster objects when I say foreign invasion of Muslim countries is not acceptable. I understand it that in a way, she/he is trying to create consent that it's okay to invade Muslim countries. Why doesn't this trigger anyone?

I'm not trying to point fingers at you, personally. I'm trying to draw attention to the double standard when it comes to hate speech. We know the outcomes of hate against Jews, it was a disaster. Why is it okay to create hate against Muslims, especially when Middle East is so destabilized and millions of civilian Muslims have already been killed?

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jews-and-the-african-slave-trade/

Do you want to quote the (fabricated) Protocols of the Elders of Zion too? Did Jews 'shut that down as being antisemitic' too? Quite right he was shut down as being antisemitic!

You've cherry picked from the second article you shared. The rest of the paragraph from which you wrote 'about 75% of southern Jewish families in USA owned slaves' goes on to explain further: "The Jewish population in these cities was quite small, however, so the total number of slaves they owned represented just a small fraction of the total slave population; Eli Faber, a historian at New York City’s John Jay College reported that in 1790, Charleston’s Jews owned a total of 93 slaves, and that “perhaps six Jewish families” lived in Savannah in 1771."

"Davis went on to note that in the American South in 1830 there were “120 Jews among the 45,000 slaveholders owning twenty or more slaves and only twenty Jews among the 12,000 slaveholders owning fifty or more slaves."

Furthermore, you claim that some of the slave trade ships belonged to Jews, but again, you have missed the later point which looks at overall Jewish involvement in the slave trade "Faber concludes that the claim of Jewish domination is false and that the Jewish role in slavery was “exceedingly limited.” According to Faber, British Jews were always in the minority of investors in slaving operations and were not known to have been among the primary owners of slave fleets. Faber found that, with few exceptions, Jews were minor figures in brokering the sale of slaves upon their arrival in the Americas, and given the urban-dwelling propensity of most American Jews, few accumulated large rural properties and plantations where slave labor was most concentrated. According to Faber, Jews were more likely than non-Jews to own slaves, but on average they owned fewer of them."

It's a stain on Jewish history, as is all slave trade, but not quite the antisemitic conspiracy theory presented by The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews.

Ocha it 'triggered' people because it is straight up antisemitic libel. Your point arguing against not using historical injustices to justify invasion stands on its own. It doesn't need backing up with false claims about Jewish domination in the slave trade.

You've argued a few points now by claiming that Jews do the same (or worse) as Muslims (circumcision, slave trade), and don't get called out for it (or it's shut down as antisemitic), and that there is a double standard, but that's just not true.

It comes across as defending Muslims by saying look Jews do this thing too but actually much worse, and they don't get hate for it, (i.e. islamophobia) and then you've backed your point with 'evidence' that is literally an antisemitic conspiracy theory, which has caused harm to Jewish people, and could continue to cause harm today.

I think it's easier to define what Islamaphobia isn't.

It's not justly critiquing a religion for what many see as embedded misogyny. Women under societal pressure to confirm to male governed models for their lives, strict dress rules, strict rules on social mixing, choice of marriage partner, compliance in not being involved in certain activities that are deemed male only, restrictions on entertainment and educational aspirations.

It's not saying that quite rightly our country has no blasphemy law and mockery of religion though offensive to some can not be illegal.

It's not saying we have one rule of law for the whole country and we can't deviate from that.

It's not saying that we have a problem in some quarters of Islam of visceral anti semitism.

It's not saying that if we look at modern terrorist atrocity then we should look at the religion of the perpetrators.

It's not saying that we can look at the religious connection for modern grooming gangs.

It is saying we can not abuse and assault people.of Islamic faith as is the case for any citizen.

We need to have the ability to scrutinise religions when they act as a force within our plural society especially if the foundations of the religion may run contrary to our liberal values. As a society this is a politically allowable avenue for discussion. And depression of the discussion through blanket accusations of Islamaphobia only gardens feelings and leads to the rise of eight wing political parties as seen through Europe.

You don't need religion to tell you not to kill. You just need empathy and the realization that you're part of a society. Also - what about those religions where some people believe that killing a load of other people gives them a fast track to heaven? Religion can take away people's reason and make them kill!

The way to explain things we don't understand is through science. If we want to make up explanations for things we don't understand, we can write stories. It's dishonest to pretend that those stories are facts.

We can absolutely teach ethics without religion

Why do religions cause some to kill on its behalf?

Not everyone obviously but in some cases. Why do we think that's benign when we could teach morality, ethics, equality and science?

There'd be no greater need to fight based on religious differences

The fact is that ARAB Muslims introduced the wholsesale slave trade of sub sahara Africans to the world. It is a fact. Hence why swathes of Black Africans in and out of Africa have as little idea of their African names as do Black descendants of TransAtlantic Chattel Slavery.

As a Black person, this does not "trigger" me , just like I am not "triggered" by most truth telling. And being triggered is no excuse for minimisation, censorship or lies and propaganda.

Just like I do not seek out anti Semitism to salve the fact that anti Blackness exists in the world ,but neither is it the first, deepest or longest form of carte blanche hatred against a set of people ( female hatred, lesbian and gay hatred and anti semitism are so entrenched as to not be " noticeable" ).

My Blackness is not rooted in either jealousy or self pity that Black people are not the only victims of racism in the world or the fact that we don't "do collectivism" like the stereotype we have of Jewish communities around the world...which seems to be the root of so much Black anti Semitism.

Nor do I minimise Arab or Muslim anti Blackness because of the lie that being a non Black Muslim immediately denotes commonhood between being Black and being Muslim. The last American election results and its campaign talking points about Kamala coming from Arab and Muslims in America who racistly fooled themselves that Trump wouldn't do to them what they expected only Black people to get tge brunt of should have put paid to that foolery.

If truth telling triggers you into anti Semitism, you need studying. Put down the Down low Prison derived anti Semitism that Black anti Semitism derives from. It's embarassing.

I was only dismissing the low key argument that Islam spread through osmosis and is all about "passivity".
It spread via the sword that goes along with the crescent moon on many flags of the countries that are overwhelmingly Muslim.

Just like Christians, Muslims are sturdy enough to handle the shittier facts as to why their religion is so widespread , enduring in such a short amount of time.

And I am sure that us Black people are grown up enough to.handle the fact that Europeans did not slave out our ancestors first or continue to do so as a LITERAL means to STILL build nations and "keep house" of their rich like in UAE and Saudi Arabia. Post Modernist politrickism will not solve the problem of an anti Blackness that is as much of a problem within as outside our communities.

Remember that Colonel Gadaffi was resented in the.Arab and North African world for trying to build commonality with Black Africa ( not to minimise his badness).
That resentment was not based in pro Blackness or North and Sub Sahara African unity.

Another thing; I have never encountered another Black person who cool with being Black or puts their Blackness first or second ....who is anti Semitic.

Always "seeking", "fairytailing" and trying to squirrel into.identifying with something they consider to be "bigger than" or " more respected than" plain Being Black.

Yes and black African girls, primarily from Nigeria, are trafficked regularly into Iraq as slaves.

I did not object to your opinion that fireign invasion of muslim countries is objectionable.
I asked you to contextualise what you meant in light of the historical and current violent Islamification in countries that are and are not overwhelmingly Muslim or where Islam has no provenance.
Please do not lie on me because.you are questioned.
That you spiralled into anti.Semitism from using anti Semites and unsourced "Jewish" sources and from my interpretation, assumed that I am White and/or Jewish by asking my question and making my.statement is very telling....
and gives credence to the identity crises that I have encountered in ALL Black/non White anti.Semites that I encounter in real life.
Why did you think I was not Black?
Or why do you think that only White/ Jewish people could be questioning of Islamic manifestation? Especially as most Black people are not Muslim and do not force team Islam with Being Black, even though many Black people are Muslim?

It shouldn’t be at all surprising that black people may also query Islamic manifestation. In addition to the fact anybody is entitled to query any religion they like regardless of factors such as race and background, groups such as Boko Haram mean white/Jewish people aren’t the only groups affected by jihad. Huge numbers of Nigerians are being displaced and murdered as we speak.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/sep/03/at-least-80-dead-after-suspected-boko-haram-attack-in-nigeria

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/01/nigeria-boko-haram-must-end-vicious-killing-spree/

We don't need religions in order to know it's wrong to kill. Do you think people who don't follow a religion think it's ok to kill people? They don't! They've used reason and sense.

We don't need religions in order to know it's wrong to kill. Do you think people who don't follow a religion think it's ok to kill people?

@OchaLove I'm interested, do you think this is the case?

That’s the difference between morals and religion isn’t it? You can have decent morals and not be religious or you can have decent morals and be religious. But there are also people who are religious who do atrocious things in the name of religion. How can two people read the same holy book but one is peaceful and tolerant of others and the other is hateful and murderous and believes they will only go to paradise if they kill non believers? What is the difference between the two?

YES EXACTLY!

As my daughter pointed out to me, "if you need god to tell you that killing people is wrong, then maybe you aren't very moral after all."

I think that people whose moral stance is derived rationally have a firmer grasp of it than those who are told what to believe without questioning.

It's an important philosophical discussion about morals and religion but we have to realise that in many Islamic households that discussion isn't held because there is no allowed debate about the existence of non existence of God. Religion is 'baked in' to your upbringing and identity (very much like Christiniaty in previous centuries).

It is this prevention of young Muslims considering aetheasim as choice that is worrying. All those prickly conversations about religion are suppressed.

People find other fact free stories to live by though. It seems to be in many people’s natures.

The right trainers will make you happy and attractive etc

Andrew Tate knows the way.

etc

There are also fundamentalist Christians affecting society in concrete ways, especially in America for example. Apparently a there is a movement among young Catholics towards older more conservative ways. In Israel there are extremist religious factions affecting outcomes there. It seems to be something of a trend at the moment.

It's true that there are fundamentalist/extremists in all religions, but Islam seems particularly resistant to questioning and/or ridicule.

I was reminded of this when a Catholic friend posted a humorous video sharing different 'ashing' styles for Ash Wednesday today. I know Jewish people make jokes about their religion and culture, but do Muslims ever joke about their religion and culture? Is that even allowed?

From my upbringing in a small provincial Jewish community, I think it was forbidden for Jews to pay to go to see comedy shows on the sabbath. And they certainly would not be driving there. The comedian, if he were Jewish, would certainly be breaking sabbath rules by expecting payment for his act. However if you were to walk to the show, but not pay entrance, it would be permissible but only if you took a gentile, sitting alongside, laughing at the jokes for you.

Assuming you're responding to me, fair enough, but that's about the sabbath and not about the humor.

Do Muslims ever joke about their religion and culture? Is that even allowed?