Can someone explain Islamophobia to me?

[BaMamma]

I don't think I have an irrational fear of Muslims, but I think I have a reasonable concern about radical Islam, does that make me Islamophobic?

I'm quite happy to be called Islamophobic under these terms. I don't like Islamists. I don't like Christianity or Evangelicals either.

Also interested to know which Islamic countries treat women as equal too.

Also interested to know which Islamic countries treat women as equal too.

Well we all know they don’t exist so it’s easier to call you Islamophobic and shut you down.

” I don't like Christianity or Evangelicals either.”
You don’t have to like the religion but if you have a negative view of every Christian on the basis of their religion then you are irrationally prejudiced .( not so different from anti semitism - but obviously far less common in the West)

☝️The same obviously applies to all other religions including Islam.

I agree with you on both accounts that fixed minds and shutting down debates are bad. What we disagree is I see how fixed minded, prejudiced people are coming to decisions that it's okay to be Islamophobic and that doesn't make them bigots.

For instance, right after you one poster writes: "islamists are different and separate from Muslims. Therefore I think many reasonable people are right in being islamophobic because it’s the Islamist ideology which is scary, sexist and authoritarian."

If you are okay with above then I'm running out of logical arguments to present here. The above poster either don't know what islamophobic means or they deliberately manipulates the meaning of it to target all muslims.

Are you okay with these types of reasonings? If you are then what is the point of continuing to debate. But you guys can keep continue to debate on that level, it's fine, it's interesting to read. I wouldn't ask for this debate to be shutdown as I'm a believer of free speech. But I understand others who don't see value in engaging.

I did post a link showing a map of majority muslim countries that has nothing to do with sharia law and most have constitutions based on mostly french law which is as secular as you can get. Isn't this good enough for you?

If you're asking if these countries are treating women equal to men in practice then I'll ask you two questions:
1- define being treated equal
2- show me a western country where women are treated equal to men -so that I can nitpick many cases in that country where women are not treated equal just like what you're trying to do here.

Also, thinking further on this and I think the word "Islamist" is also problematic. Therefore, I will not use it anymore and will use Islamic radicals instead. Whoever came up with this word didn't have good intensions. Think about it, we don't say Christianists to refer to Christian radicals. Or similar to Islamist governments, we have far right governments advocating Christian values in a way that could potentially discriminate others. We rightly call them 'far right', not Christianists in a way to suggest that Christian religion is inherently radical. But when it comes to Islam there is this effort to insinuate 1.9 billion people as radicals by associating the whole religion with the tiny % of radicals within them even through words.

Well, I was specific about Evangelicals because I find them extreme.
But yes, I'm starting to think you're right and I am prejudiced towards religious people. I need to think more about this 😔.

I dont hold antisemitism in the same category as there are of course many secular Jewish people, ie non practicing. I think of antisemitism as racist. Am I prejudiced against the Orthodox? When I look at that, I don't think so as I cannot remember one instance of any Jewish person pushing their faith onto me. Worst I've personally suffered is having to move seats on El Al. Can't say say same for Christianity etc etc.

Thanks for speaking about this in good faith.

@OchaLove do you believe there are equable rights for women in girls in the U.K. and the countries you listed below?

Which of those countries would you feel most comfortable living in, raising dc / dd in would you say

Are there any you wouldn't feel comfortable with?

Equal in law. Or equal at the point of law? Men and women having the same rights in law. I don’t know the phrasing.

Of course being equal in law doesn’t necessarily equate being equal in practice but it’s a start and indicates the intentions of that country.

you are misquoting me. It was @rainingroses that argued a difference between islamists and Muslims. I simply drew from that that we could rightly be islamophobic if we dislike what is going on in Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi, and the like. I have absolutely no problem with Muslim people. I am a kind caring pacifist sort of person but also a feminist. I don’t appreciate being labelled as too stupid to debate with, as I am a reader and read a lot around the subjects that interest me. I have read large chunks of the bible. I have read large chunks of the Koran. Parts of the Koran are disturbing when discussing women who are more or less categorised like pets to be looked after and guided!! I’m not saying Christianity is or has been any better in terms of violence over the years or prejudices against women. But that should not stop us from having a free mind to decide whether we like Islam or not. and particularly the curtailments to women that it brings either overtly or in the name of morality. Where is men’s morality? I merely ask Muslim women to perhaps question the religion they follow in the same way I did mine. Sorry for any offense my posts cause I wish you all happy and peaceful lives. I sincerely hope radical Islam does not spread into free countries that’s all.

If the above makes me Islamophobic so be it. But I will not be labelled a bigot.

I grew up in Turkey, and could go back and live in Turkey, and if I had a daughter I would be okay with her growing up there.

So you must know that many of the brutal practices that Islam is being accused of also exists in Christianity and Judaism. For instance, when I search for "Is there stoning in the Bible?" this is what I get:

"Yes, stoning is mentioned in the Bible as a form of execution. It appears in the Torah and Old Testament.

Explanation
Stoning was a public execution method.

It was used to punish people accused of adultery, murder, blasphemy, and prostitution.

It was also specified when a family member or friend tried to convince someone to worship idols.

Stoning was carried out in accordance with the Hebrew Bible.

The practice of stoning as a form of execution originated in ancient Greece and in Judeo-Christian religious texts."

And if I search for: "Is there stoning in Judaism?", this is what I get:

"Yes, according to traditional Jewish law, "stoning" is listed as a method of capital punishment for certain offenses in the Torah and Talmud, although it is not practiced in modern Jewish society due to the extremely strict requirements for carrying out such a punishment; it is considered nearly impossible to meet these conditions in a court of law today.

Key points about stoning in Judaism:
Biblical basis:
The Torah mentions stoning as a punishment for crimes like adultery, idolatry, and blasphemy.

Talmudic interpretation:
The Talmud further details the specific procedures involved in stoning, including throwing the condemned person from a height to ensure a fatal outcome.

Modern practice:
Due to the stringent requirements for carrying out a death penalty, including the need for multiple credible witnesses, no Jewish court today would ever sentence someone to stoning."

Existed. In the past. Not now.

You know that, surely.

So @Alphavilla when you single out Koran as the only holy text having disturbing stuff, you're not being fair. Also, I wonder how do you read Koran, as I haven't read it in its entirety because I don't trust many translations as I don't know Arabic and especially interpretations.

Does Islam need moderation in some countries? Yes, but not through foreign invasion. I don't agree with portraying the whole religion as radical though and I don't agree dehumanizing or devaluing populations of Muslim countries based on an overgeneralized and false assumption.

Islamophobia is a form of bigotry.

She said she was disturbed by Koran when discussing women. I'm saying disturbing texts exists in all Abrahamic religious texts. All Abrahamic religions are patriarchal not just Islam.

Islamophobia does not simply mean someone opposing Islamist extremism (spoiler: many ordinary Muslims oppose this too). It refers to anti-Muslim discrimination, prejudice and hate. It is the institutional prejudices, the stereotyping, the minimisation and dismissal of the voices of Muslims. It is how every Muslim is held accountable and expected to apologise for the actions of countries and individuals even when they've never been there and have nothing in common with them other than religion. It is how ordinary people are considered to have more loyalty to other countries or movements than to their country of residence, simply on the basis of their faith. It is the adultification of Muslim children. It is the assumption of negative intent and unreliability.

It is present at every level of society, with evidence of it at national and international levels, across the media, in workplaces, in schools, in shops, on the school run, etc. It is also very present online, including on online forums.

Nobody should be proudly saying they're Islamophobic, just as nobody should be proudly saying they're antisemitic or anti-Christian or racist. No forms of prejudice or hatred are anything to be proud of.

People will have different ways of seeing the world, and find different things they agree with and disagree with. But prejudice and hatred like the examples just given go beyond personal dislike and represent people choosing to cause harm to others as a result of their dislike of something, on the basis of those others having a characteristic which they consider to justify treating them as 'less than' and 'other'.

Not you trying to defend Muslims stoning women to death THESE DAYS by stating Christians and Jews having stoning in their holy books which were written thousands of years ago 🤣😆🤣

But what if you have come to personal harm at the hands of extremists, of whatever sort? Would you still expect that person not to be prejudiced against other extremists?
In an ideal world perhaps we could all take each person as they come, I agree. But that simply isn't how most human brains work.

Thanks for replying. I think you’ve raised a lot of interesting examples.

For instance, right after you one poster writes: "islamists are different and separate from Muslims. Therefore I think many reasonable people are right in being islamophobic because it’s the Islamist ideology which is scary, sexist and authoritarian."

If you are okay with above then I'm running out of logical arguments to present here.

I disagree with that poster’s argument, though I think it’s a pretty ideal style of discussing: first distinguishing concepts, then answering the question directly, clarifying whether they think their take applies to all or some cases (‘many’), and finally giving their reasons.

I think it’s a pity you feel you couldn’t engage logically with that claim. It’s a missed opportunity to persuade, for a start.

I know not only that I disagree with that poster’s conclusion, I know why we disagree, because of how they’ve laid it out. (I think they are using a definition of Islamophobia that is too broad. Someone else might disagree on a different ground). Less time wasted arguing past each other, and more chance of coming to agreement or at least of understanding different views.

Interestingly that comes back to definitions again.

There are legitimately several reasonable definitions of Islamophobia (see earlier where I posted a few differing ones). A key point is whether something must be irrational or extreme to count or not. (I think it must be irrational. I don’t think it must be extreme).

The above poster either don't know what islamophobic means or they deliberately manipulates the meaning of it to target all muslims.

We differ here. You see two options: the poster is either in bad faith or is ignorant. I think a third very obvious option is that you just differ on definitions. Because you exclude that option, I see why you might feel this must be personalized. In the bit you quoted it seems to me that the poster is trying not to tar all Muslims which is why their first sentence is there.

While spending time clarifying definitions and arguments might seem like sophistry I really think it’s not. Without it you have jumped to a very personalized view of that poster, and who knows, maybe they’ve jumped to a very negative view of you too. I don’t see that as good if it’s based on misunderstandings, in either direction.

(btw I haven’t read that poster’s full posts: they might be a raging KKK bigot for all I know. Then again, they might be a devout Muslim: there’s nothing in the bit you quoted that could not be held by a Muslim. In fact I’ve met Muslims whose view is pretty much that. I still disagree with them, because we differ on definitions).

people are coming to decisions that it's okay to be Islamophobic and that doesn't make them bigots

I believe it’s not possible to be Islamophobic without being a bigot. That’s why definitions matter. Because some definitions make it possible to be one without being bigoted. I think those fails to capture the moral valence of the word as it is actually used.

(Having just banged on about being precise, I feel I should be too: I think it’s impossible to be Islamophobic without being irrational, and I think prejudice is one of the main ways of being irrational. That’s not quite the same as saying that all Islamophobes are bigots, but I do think all anti-Muslim bigots are Islamophobes).

@OchaLove and the second part of the question

Are there any countries on that list you wouldn't be comfortable with?