Can someone explain Islamophobia to me?

[BaMamma]

I don't think I have an irrational fear of Muslims, but I think I have a reasonable concern about radical Islam, does that make me Islamophobic?

noun: arachnophobia
1 extreme or irrationall fear of spiderss.

No mention of dislike here

I wonder why it is part of the one in relation to a religion

Can something be a trope if it's true?

Whoever accused or described the OP as Islamphobic was correct as she fall into the dictionary definition. I understand why@BaMamma is pissed off that they said it, but they were right.🤷‍♀️

Can you explain how having a rational concern about radical Islam makes me Islamophobic? I don't think all Muslims are radicalized, but radical Islam scares me, and I am concerned for women's rights in the countries where it is enforced.

How does anything about that make me Islamophobic?

What? Reading her response you'll need more than this post to make the claim

@TooBigForMyBoots OK, sure:

Oxford Languages: "Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force".
Collins: "Unreasonable dislike or fear of, and prejudice against, Muslims or Islam".
Merriam-Webster: "Irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against Islam or people who practice Islam"
OED: "Intense dislike or fear of Islam, especially as a political force; hostility or prejudice towards Muslims."

These definitions each give different answers in different cases, i.e. they conflict.

e.g. Alex dislikes Islam. His dislike is rational, reasonable and mild. He's a thinker and he doesn't much care for religions of any stripe.

Captured by the Islamophobia definition?

OxLang: Yes
Collins: No
M-W: No
OED: No

e.g. Bahar has an intense fear of Muslims. It's a rational and reasonable one. She's a Yazidi and subject to a fatwa.

OxLang: probably Yes.
Collins: No
M-W: No
OED: Yes

Your view was, basically, if the dictionary definition fits then it's Islamophobia.

Two examples above where definitions give conflicting results. I'm wondering how you handle that. Would you say Alex or Bahar or both are exhibiting Islamophobia? Whatever your answer, your answer contradicts a dictionary.

It doesn't. However your posts clearly demonstrate hostility and prejudice against Muslims and that's Islamophobic.

And that’s where the problem lies.

Being hostile to and prejudiced against a religion for any reason is not anything-phobic. Plenty of people don’t have much time for Christianity but no one is seeking to bring in blasphemy laws around that (even though it’s Britian’s state religion).

That should not be conflated with hostility to or prejudice against someone who practises that religion - though if they are acting in a way that is contrary to the laws of the land, that is a different matter again.

We have the Equality Act to balance rights. A blasphemy law of any kind rides a coach and horses through the EA.

I agree. People should be able to question and criticise any aspect of any religion.

This is a post from the op. That anyone makes the claim this is a phobia is the issue.

How do my posts "clearly demonstrate hostility and prejudice against Muslims"? Could you give me an example of my hostility and/or prejudice? I'm willing to learn if you can show me where I've demonstrated this.

To the posters getting bogged down drown into an argument about the true definition of Islamophobia and how nuanced it is, they’re playing you like a fiddle here. It really is not difficult to understand. Don’t get drawn into it.

I’d disagree with you I think there can be quite an extreme version of aetheism. Certainly when you consider China where the party line is aetheism. Practicing religion whilst not illegal is certainly viewed as potentially seditious and you don’t have to look far to find the current persecution of those that practice Islam doing forced labour / re-education.

I think religion or non religion should be about live and let live. I think when you are trying to force your opinions upon others or making them live by your standards of religious belief ( or not as the case may be) then you are an extremist.

I explained in this post @BaMamma and having read your posts back, I find your focus on burka wearing women in the west Islamophobic. You seem to see Muslims as either victims or perpetrators.

So, can you tell me whether having a rational concern about radical Islam makes me Islamophobic? I don't think all Muslims are radicalized, but radical Islam scares me, and I am concerned for women's rights in the countries where it is enforced.

Explain the nuance to me?

I've also commented several times on the concern I have for women under regimes that enforce the burka and niqab. I see it as a symbol of women's oppression, and I'm uncomfortable seeing that in a Western context.

Is that Islamophobic?

No one has to find positives in religion @TooBigForMyBoots

It's also not a phobia not to do so.

I am concerned for all women living under oppressive regimes that seek to remove their rights. I am concerned for all women living under the oppression of men. What is happening in Afganistan is terrifying. But Afgans and Muslims are doing the best they can to resist, and support women living there.

The UK doesn't oppress women for wearing or not wearing a burka. Under our law it is a choice for the individual woman, as it should be. You however seem to be targeting them. Making assumptions about them.

You also said upthread that Iran have banned women from speaking in public. Do you have a link for that because I can't find anything?

Green - Countries where Sharia plays no official role in the judicial system. Yellow - Countries where Sharia exists only for Muslims (not for non-Muslims) and plays a role only in adjudicating personal status issues (such as marriage, divorce, inheritance, and child custody).
Purple - Countries where Sharia plays a role in adjudicating personal status issues as well as criminal cases.
Orange - Countries with regional variations in the application of Sharia.

I'm placing an image showing a map above but it doesn't show. Here is the link to the map:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_Sharia_by_country#/media/File:Use_of_Sharia_by_country_updated.svg

Alternative view: people here are informed, intelligent and articulate, and can confidently state and debate their position (in any/either direction) without worrying they are being ‘played’ by anyone. It’s healthy to have debate on social issues informed by a wide range of views, which are shaped by a wide range of different life experience, concerns and needs. Most people are here in good faith, are grown-ups, and policing or warning off people from engaging degrades the MN experience and the debate.

Not really. My alternative view is far from yours. Most people here on this debate sound ill informed, fixed minded and prejudiced. They seem to be looking for ways to justify their positions by overgeneralizing radical examples. They also use a subtle (in some responses not so subtle) tone that considers Muslims as inferiors.

Radical examples don’t need to be the norm though for them to be a valid concern.

I suppose this is partly a mindset difference. Because I also recognise that people can be misinformed, etc etc that you state.

There are two ways to run with this intuition:

a) People disagree with me. Humans are fallible so I might be wrong. This is a reason to have more debate, less gate keeping, more enquiry and exploration of ideas.

b) People disagree with me. Humans are fallible so they’re probably wrong. This is a reason to have less debate, more gate keeping, less enquiry and exploration of ideas.

I think history has shown that a) is by far a better strategy. It gave us (or at least bolstered) the enlightenment, science, political pluralism and individual rights, and I’d argue moral progress too. Plus more informative, if perhaps more chaotic, MN threads.

@OchaLove I think we agree that fixed minds are a bad thing. I think we disagree on whether fixed debates are good or bad. I think open debates are more likely to produce open and flexible thinking, and shutting down and warning off debate is more likely to produce more rigid and inflexible thinking.

In particular, I think the style of discussion that seeks to understand the other side, asks questions, clarifies concepts and areas of agreement and disagreement is especially healthy.

That’s why I was a little surprised that it was my post asking what the PP meant that provoked her to withdraw from the discussion and warn off others from over-thinking about the issue.

That felt to me like a prime example of the fixed thinking style. Do you disagree?

@rainingroses claims that islamists are different and separate from Muslims. Therefore I think many reasonable people are right in being islamophobic because it’s the Islamist ideology which is scary, sexist and authoritarian. No one is claiming to be a muslimophobe.

im still interested in learning which Islamic counties in the Middle East treat women as equals @rainingroses