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Conflict in the Middle East

Gaza death toll rises to close to 62000 as missing added

449 replies

Lalaloveya · 03/02/2025 16:42

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/2/3/gaza-death-toll-rises-close-to-62000-as-missing-added

The new death toll includes 17,881 children, including 214 newborn infants.

At least 1,155 medical personnel, 205 journalists and 194 civil defence workers are reported to have been killed.

More than 2million people have been displaced and 111,588 people injured.

Deaths from Israel’s attacks on Gaza close to 62,000 as missing added

Local authorities add 14,000 people, missing and presumed dead, to the list.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/2/3/gaza-death-toll-rises-close-to-62000-as-missing-added

OP posts:
Dulra · 04/02/2025 17:37

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I suggest no one else feeds this troll.

They're not a troll they've posted on these threads many times. Disagreeing with them doesn't make them a troll. I suggest you refrain from personal attacks.

SharonEllis · 04/02/2025 17:40

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I was not referring to the modern state of Israel but the historic Israelite kingdoms which go back to BCE. The right of self determination of the Jewish people in their historic homeland is entirely different to the history of the USA et al.

LetThereBeLove · 04/02/2025 17:41

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andIsaid · 04/02/2025 17:45

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@dairydebris I have been on this site for 18+ years and am respectful to other posters.

Resorting to personal attacks rather than engaging with the issue usually highlights the fact that argument is ...thin?

If we follow your logic, that of 1,000s of years connection to that land, then all Americans should leave the United States as the indigenous were there for thousands of years before they came. In fact, we could go so far as to say the Americans were the settlers of the day on that continent.

All English should also leave, as we are by and large decedents of the Anglo and Saxon tribes, who came over from the Germany of the day.

And on we could go.

It is an asinine argument with no weight.

Jews, Muslims, Christian, Agnostics, Atheists, Mystery Cults, they all lived there, traded there, settled there, moved on from there.

Jews have claim, sure.

But not more claim than the Palestinians.

Scirocco · 04/02/2025 17:46

SharonEllis · 04/02/2025 15:47

I understand international law. I was pointimg out the complete imbalance in hostage/prisoner exchange. But what Im really interested in is how do Palestinians free themselves from Hamas and why is the so-called Pro-Palestinian movement so uninterested in doing it?

The negotiations for the hostage release/exchange for people detained in Israeli custody will no doubt have been highly complex and I expect the lists include compromises on both sides. Many of the people on the lists to be released from Israeli custody are people who have not been convicted and have instead been detained in arbitrary detention processes, some have received lengthy detention periods which are considered by many human rights bodies to be disproportionate and discriminatory, in that similar sentences would not be issued in cases where the accused person was of a different ethnicity or faith. It is widely argued by human rights bodies that many Palestinians detained would indeed come within the definition of 'hostages', and that one reason for the widespread use of arbitrary detention is to create a large 'pool' of potential exchange candidates. There are people on the release lists who have suffered greatly, in dire conditions within detention centres where torture is considered acceptable practice. There are also, on the list, some names which are horrendous to read and to consider that these people will walk free, whether that's in Palestine or somewhere else in the world - people who have carried out, and been proud to carry out, awful crimes including acts of rape, murder, and terrorist campaigns. What a deal to have to make, to let them out, knowing the harm they can do... There are names on that list who are clear security risks to Palestine, Israel and potentially further afield if they travel.

How do Palestinians free themselves from Hamas? I suppose it hinges upon having a viable alternative or alternatives, and opportunities for those alternatives to establish themselves. One of the key strategies of the Israeli government was to prop up Hamas and keep alternatives fragmented and on the fringes, but there are people out there who can bring communities together and propose alternatives to violence, if negotiators and all parties can create circumstances in which those proposals have a chance.

I don't think people are uninterested. There are lots of debates, discussions, passionate disagreements, campaign booths and street campaigns about different perspectives on the future for Palestine and Palestinians, including a future free from Hamas, PIJ and others. Just this weekend, there were 3 stalls in a nearby town centre about Palestine and one of them literally had a headline banner of "Free Palestine From Hamas" as they spoke about the importance of Palestine's Day After being free from the organisations which have carried out terrorist atrocities.

Dulra · 04/02/2025 17:47

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Report them then if you think they're a troll but mumsnet would disagree on whether troll accusations are personal attacks.

This poster will not fully engage with questions and obfuscates
No they don't you just didn't understand them

andIsaid · 04/02/2025 17:49

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LetThereBeLove · 04/02/2025 17:51

Dulra · 04/02/2025 17:26

Your reply about your engaging with Israeli army personnel makes absolutely no sense at all. Are you making stuff up as you go along as it sure reads that way.

@LetThereBeLove You don't seem to be able to comprehend what they're saying.

I am in the company of .......in this belief. Means they are of the same belief as these people, in this case the Israeli army staff and Israeli citizens who have denounced war crimes.

This still makes no sense as the implication was that the poster had personal contact with Israeli army personnel. That's what I was asking but no doubt the poster is glad of your support.
Israel is a democracy so I would be very surprised if their citizens didn't agree with their government actions at times, especially during a war where their citizens are used for bartering aka hostages.
I for one frequently disagree with the actions of the British government. Surely you do too, if you are a British citizen?
The difference in Gaza is that people who disagree with Hamas tend to lose their lives.

andIsaid · 04/02/2025 17:52

SharonEllis · 04/02/2025 17:40

I was not referring to the modern state of Israel but the historic Israelite kingdoms which go back to BCE. The right of self determination of the Jewish people in their historic homeland is entirely different to the history of the USA et al.

All people have a right to self determination.

But not based on anthropological claims from BCE.

Israel is the history homeland of many peoples, one group of which are Jewish.

LetThereBeLove · 04/02/2025 17:55

I think if you ask most Israelis they will say Europe

Just a show of ignorance on your part. Israel is probably the most muti racial country in the Middle East. People have come from Russia and eastern Europe for sure, Australia, South Africa, Ethiopia, UK, France, Germany, USA, Canada ...all points of the globe.

SharonEllis · 04/02/2025 17:55

This reply has been deleted

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I have no clue where my great grandparents were born. Thats a nonsensical argument.

You do know why Jewish people had to leave the region right? You know that some didnt go very far and have lived in the wider middle east for centuries?

They are not colonialists in their own homeland.

andIsaid · 04/02/2025 17:56

LetThereBeLove · 04/02/2025 17:30

Hamas are a terrorist organisation.
1200 people including non Israelis butchered on one day 7 October (including children and babies.) That's not counting the deaths of hostages as Hamas won't say how many or who have died.
This war is not a competition so stop trying to make it one.

Edited

I am not trying to make it a competition.

The fact that this was is a symmetrical was the point.

LetThereBeLove · 04/02/2025 17:58

Israel is the history (sic) homeland of the three Abrahamic religions the very first of which was Judaism.

andIsaid · 04/02/2025 17:58

LetThereBeLove · 04/02/2025 17:35

andIsaid I'm sure all our forebears of all three Abrahamic faiths would be interested to learn that Israel only came into being in 1948. Archaeologists galore would tell you how wrong you are and that there is plenty of evidence that the indigenous Jewish people lived in Israel long ago.

Edited

is plenty of evidence that the indigenous Jewish people lived in Israel long ago.

Did anyone else live there then?

Or were they all alone?

TrumpWon2024 · 04/02/2025 18:01

Liv999 · 04/02/2025 13:47

Don't forget Israel also released some completely innocent Palestinian hostages, they were not all terrorists

This is a gross misrepresentation. There were those who hadn't yet been indicted and/or convicted. But their arrest was due to criminal amd/or terrorist activity. It wasn't the case that Israeli soldiers randomly arrested people with no ryhme or reason, as Hamas had done.

Dulra · 04/02/2025 18:02

LetThereBeLove · 04/02/2025 17:51

This still makes no sense as the implication was that the poster had personal contact with Israeli army personnel. That's what I was asking but no doubt the poster is glad of your support.
Israel is a democracy so I would be very surprised if their citizens didn't agree with their government actions at times, especially during a war where their citizens are used for bartering aka hostages.
I for one frequently disagree with the actions of the British government. Surely you do too, if you are a British citizen?
The difference in Gaza is that people who disagree with Hamas tend to lose their lives.

no doubt the poster is glad of your support.
Wasn't about supporting them I was just getting irritated that you were suggesting they were a liar because you didn't understand how they worded something

This still makes no sense
To you

LetThereBeLove · 04/02/2025 18:03

andIsaid · 04/02/2025 17:58

is plenty of evidence that the indigenous Jewish people lived in Israel long ago.

Did anyone else live there then?

Or were they all alone?

Google is your friend.

andIsaid · 04/02/2025 18:08

SharonEllis · 04/02/2025 17:55

I have no clue where my great grandparents were born. Thats a nonsensical argument.

You do know why Jewish people had to leave the region right? You know that some didnt go very far and have lived in the wider middle east for centuries?

They are not colonialists in their own homeland.

Edited

I have no clue where my great grandparents were born. Thats a nonsensical argument. How does that statement line up with this statement - they are not colonialists in their own homeland.

The Palestinians can show their homes (that Israelis now live in ) but that is of no concern because thousands of years ago Jews lived there.

Thousands off years ago Romans lived there too - want the Italians to move in?

Jews did live there. Alongside Arabs.

You do know why Jewish people had to leave the region right?

Yes I do.

Our human history is very sad. There is always one group dominated, murdering and stealing from another.

LetThereBeLove · 04/02/2025 18:11

There weren't Arabs 5000+ years ago living alongside Jews andIsaid but I'm sure you know that.

andIsaid · 04/02/2025 18:20

LetThereBeLove · 04/02/2025 18:11

There weren't Arabs 5000+ years ago living alongside Jews andIsaid but I'm sure you know that.

Edited

Are you seriously suggesting that a claim based on archeological finds and biblical claims from 5000+ years ago is enough for ownership?

What happens when new archeological finds come in?

Liv999 · 04/02/2025 18:24

andIsaid · 04/02/2025 18:20

Are you seriously suggesting that a claim based on archeological finds and biblical claims from 5000+ years ago is enough for ownership?

What happens when new archeological finds come in?

Looks like it, and there's the whole problem

LetThereBeLove · 04/02/2025 18:24

andIsaid · 04/02/2025 18:20

Are you seriously suggesting that a claim based on archeological finds and biblical claims from 5000+ years ago is enough for ownership?

What happens when new archeological finds come in?

I never suggested that. I just pointed out that there is evidence that Jewish people lived in the area thousands of years ago.

Liv999 · 04/02/2025 18:25

LetThereBeLove · 04/02/2025 18:11

There weren't Arabs 5000+ years ago living alongside Jews andIsaid but I'm sure you know that.

Edited

Does it actually matter whether there was or wasn't? They're there now

Liv999 · 04/02/2025 18:28

LetThereBeLove · 04/02/2025 18:24

I never suggested that. I just pointed out that there is evidence that Jewish people lived in the area thousands of years ago.

So? That has nothing to do with who has the right to live there now

andIsaid · 04/02/2025 18:30

LetThereBeLove · 04/02/2025 18:24

I never suggested that. I just pointed out that there is evidence that Jewish people lived in the area thousands of years ago.

And was there anyone else there?

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