American proposal to clear out Gaza

[Daftasabroom]

Trump is proposing to "clear out" Gaza.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2025/01/25/politics/trump-gaza-strip-jordan-egypt

So USA is actually proposing that the Gaza Strip should be cleared of Palestinians. 1.5 million people.

You expressed surprise as to why I couldn’t understand how people could support the killing of innocent civilians based on the fact that I have links to North of Ireland…

Please feel free to clarify

Given the strong level of support for the Palestinian cause in Ireland I would be interested to see what the views of Irish people are on offering either temporary or permanent sanctuary to Palestinian (importantly on a voluntary basis).

We have enough experience of our land being carved up and "developed" or planted by foreign powers to know it never ends well for the native population.

Once Palestinians leave they will never ever be able to return (how will they compete to buy or rent property in an area that is now a 'riveria" with casinos and a playground for the wealthy) and for that reason I do not think any country should host Palestinians. It plays right into the hands of Trump and the billionaires.
They don't need sanctuary, a population that has fought for 50 years to stay on their land will not leave voluntarily. People underestimate the nationalist pride of a colonized country or one that has fought for freedom.

It will never be temporary. We all know that.

Plus it rains here all the time.

@1dayatatime

I agree with a lot of your points in that the political stability of Jordan and Egypt are of importance and I didn't pretend this is at all easy. The point is that Jordan is managing to exist as a state and is not a regional threat. There are millions of Palestinians in Jordan (or of Palestinian heritage) yet Hamas or similar groups have not had the power to become an immediate threat to Israel. Another point is that many Palestinians can be seen as Jordanians and over time the people will have a joint identity Palestinian and Jordanian and importantly live in a state.

Jordan and Egypt would need a hell of a lot of persuasion I agree to allow a new influx of Gazans but I don't think we should entirely remove this from the table when as I have said previously a 2 state solution for Palestine looks in real political terms increasingly remote and Gaza will never be territory with enough resource to support a people.

The world has always had fluctuating states and the idea of statehood is a complex one. Not everyone gets a state they want (look at the kurds) and sometimes there is partition of countries to form new ones due to internal tension(India/Pakistan). It is also obvious you can retain cultures and identity in other states (both Jews and Muslims retain distinct cultures in the UK for example).

All I am saying is that in the real world it is perhaps inevitable you need to look at what works in terms of lasting peace and prosperity. To my mind October 7th may be was a Rubicon that showed Gaza having peaceful relations with Israel whether or not as part of a 2 state solution was high on impossible and therefore people are drawn to think 'outside the box'

Yes. Often people living in communities where they can't trust or use state functions like the army, police, large parts of the civil service etc find themselves sympathising with those who purport to defend and support them. In the north this would have mainly been the PIRA.

Those people kill innocent civilians but still have community support in many areas.

I just presumed you'd be familiar with this situation. I didn't anticipate that this would somehow be offensive and am still unsure why my comment was reported and deleted but there you go.

@mids2019 You say Gaza won't be territory enough for a state, but I thought the proposed state also included the West Bank and East Jerusalem? This is what is recognised by many countries. The West Bank is quite fertile in places and Gaza could, as Trump observed, have a nice tourist industry, fishing, a little gas and oil. I think there's good potential for a Palestinian state with all these things, if an amicable situation with Israel can be established.

@Lalaloveya

Completely agree and perfectly explained. Your post had no need to be deleted.

People post all kinds of stuff about terrorism online. I think mnhq are right to delete

I don’t think there was any justification for the terrorist murders in the north ( or the terrorist murders on October 7th)

Fair play to you. I'm just explaining the mindset in the north to you as you didn't seem to understand it. Never mind.

“The mindset in the north”
There isn’t one “ mindset” in the north of Ireland or anywhere else.
Not everyone was a terrorist supporter. Not everyone thought the same way about terrorism.
I understand some people agreed with the actions of terrorists. Others went along with it because they were intimidated.

Thank you I obviously understand that different people have different thoughts and mindsets.

You literally said you didn't understand the mindset, I explained it to you. If you aren't interested that's fine. I was trying to be helpful as I thought you genuinely might be interested. Good luck.

I suppose my point is that if we “understand “ why terrorists target and kill innocent people then it does sound as if we are condoning their action ( by saying it is understandable )

Well then you are misunderstanding us. We specifically speaking about how and why the ordinary public (not actual terrorists themselves) can support terrorists. Through my own lived experiences I understand why ordinary civilians end up supporting terrorism and the nuances of that support. I do not in any way support terrorism (nor the targeting of civilians by states) by anyone myself. I have not seen anyone on this thread say that.

Having a good understanding of why people support terrorist groups is not the same as condoning it.

I wonder what the Egyptian leader is going to Washington? If there was such anger amongst the Arab nations a state visit surely wouldn't be on the carda?

Are the Egyptians going to talk tough in public but have more nuanced discussions in private? Trump could potnentially offer a lot to Egypt so this may be the beginning of how various players can be aligned to accept and Exodus of Gazans.

Trump maybe cleverly has suggested a plan many feel outrageous but no one has offered any other solutions. A lot of rhetoric from ME states but no cash or plan for reconstruction. Maybe all the regional players accept that Hamas are an international embarrassment and will possibly work with the US at least to rid the region of the menace?

Today Saudi Arabia issued one of their most powerful statements against the US plan, shortly after Netanyahu gave an interview saying that Saudi Arabia is large enough that a Palestinian state could be created on Saudi land. They reaffirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinians to a state and called out the "extremist occupying mentality" who lack understanding of the Palestinians connection to the land.

https://x.com/KSAmofaEN/status/1888451414717788364

There seems to be a general realisation in "US aligned" regimes in the region, that they could be next. It seems that someone has finally remembered Real politik embodied in the famous Henry Kissinger quotes:
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal"
and
"America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests"

They were "quiet" or issued lukewarm rebukes during the last 16 months as they thought they had a seat at the table, now they're realising they too could be cut loose. It's sad that the deaths of 62'000+ Palestinians and thousands of Lebanese had to happen.

Trump had also demanded that the Saudis increase their oil production to tackle inflation and lower prices, especially in America, they haven't.

There's a geopolitical realignment happening to different axis of influence. Trumps behaviour is just going to accelerate the changes.

A mindset, not the mindset, surely?

U.S. President Donald Trump said on Sunday he is committed to buying and owning Gaza, but could allow sections of the war-ravaged land to be rebuilt by other states in the Middle East.

https://www.reuters.com/world/trump-meet-with-leaders-saudi-arabia-egypt-israeli-president-says-2025-02-09/

The mindset we're talking about where ordinary people can support paramilitaries.

Fair play to you. I'm just explaining the mindset in the north to you as you didn't seem to understand it. Never mind.

That's why it's useful to have laws in place which make it a crime to support proscribed terrorists in the U.K.

It's very easy for that kind of violence to gain traction

Yes. It would have been great for the nationalist communities in the north if there were laws against state sanctioned violence and murder too, or even consequences after the fact, but there's been very little of that.

My family members went on the civil right marches . I know there was state sanctioned violence and wrong doing.
I’ve had family members executed by the British for taking part in the Easter Rising. I know about the violence of the Black and Tans and the terrible internecine violence of the civil war. I understand the history of Ireland very well.
But targeting innocent citizens who are out shopping etc with their families is never justified. I know people who only narrowly missed being killed in the Omagh bombing.
The bombing campaigns in the UK were completely indiscriminate .
The terrorising of communities ( kneecapping etc) is similar to the way Hamas terrorises its community. Bullies with guns .
I know people who left the North because of fears their sons would be groomed by the IRA.
Because that what they did - groomed young people like the County Lines groomers today .
Im sure Hamas does a fair bit of grooming and sadly the orphaned and vulnerable children of Gaza have no one to protect them.

literally nobody has said targeting civilians is justified. “I have an understanding” is different to saying “I find it justifiable”. It’s possible to see people’s point of view even if you don’t agree with them.

the Ira weren’t the only ones bullying and grooming either. There were also loyalist paramilitaries.

I’m just sharing my viewpoint.
Of course you’re right both sides were equally culpable

So nobody is justifying it. Just explaining why some communities supported the IRA.

If you don't have equal rights, have no political representation, can't get a job because of your religion, or a social house, or vote and you can't even go to the police when you're the victim of a crime you might find yourself sympathising with the local paramilitary group who appear to offer solutions to some of those issues.

Remember that in these areas the IRA are people's neighbours, nephews, fathers etc. Not some big strange far away bogeyman.

And while some people left to avoid all this, most stayed and Sinn Féin is the biggest political party in the North now in terms of seats.

Edited to add that obviously poverty was rampant in many nationalist communities and so poverty and lack of options are also important reasons that people stayed.