The future for Muslims in the UK is "bleak and dystopian"

[Scirocco]

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/nov/17/muslims-face-bleak-and-dystopian-climate-in-uk-says-head-of-thinktank

According to a report by the Runnymede Trust. The crisis in Palestine and Lebanon is considered to be a major contributing factor.

Sorry so what are you saying? I don't want to misuderstand you. I described people who identify as far right and support far right groups and political parties who went on racist hunts of Muslims far right and you said if we call them that then what will we call the real far right when they come. I asked who they'd be and what they'd be doing you said they would be taking a dislike to the same group of people disliked by Mosley. If you didn't mean that the real far right would be attacking Jewish people and if they're not then I'm incorrectly applying the term far right what did you mind?

In the 80s did we not call people racist people who went around attacking foreigners and were members or supportive of far right groups far right? What did it mean instead in the 80s?

I think other branches of other religions also condemn same sex relationships, abortion and sex equality. It's by no means confined to some Muslims. I do think it's important to maintain a British culture, based on tolerance and civic responsibility, and that it should be a requirement for all citizens to follow it. I suppose controversial religious views are a private matter, and as long as they are not publicly expressed or acted upon we have to accept that people of all religions may hold them.

I see your edit.

The problem is you describe a set of horrible things that have happened. You then ask if they are the work of the "far right"?

I don't know any more. What do you mean by "far right"? It doesn't mean what it used to mean as people now use it to describe Reform and Conservative voters. So with that definition I would say no those horrible things are not done by the "far right" as your average conservative voter doesn't usually go rioting. So if it's not them then how do you describe the people do DID actually do those things? And I don't know the word to use any more.

Oh wow, I don't know where to start with your comments.
I don't think there's any point really but I will just say that I work with about six Muslim men and we have a right laugh every day! Perfectly normal, friendly, respectful, funny, kind human interactions.

Is it just misogyny in the Muslim religion you have an issue with? Because it exists in most faiths. FWIW I have never know a Muslim man to have an issue with shaking my hand.

Should I have said if 'one' is calling for?....I was answering your part about what the real far right would be doing ( as extremists), those who would consider themselves on 'the left' have done similar things in recent times.
I think it's important to discover what breeds extremism and deal with its cause not just its symptoms. I'm sure you'll feel free to disagree.

Yes absolutely it does. Anyone who refuses to integrate - rejects the culture, actively ignores or tries to impose their culture and religion in another country and refuses to learn the language should not be welcome in that country.

Lucky you. It's humiliating and under mining in a professional context. And as I mentioned up thread, not being spoken to directly in boardroom meetings but via my (male) assistant. It's not appropriate behaviour in the UK to do that to women in the workplace.

But I didn't call the conservatives party far right. I'm calling the thugs who attacked Muslims as far right (many of whom identify as far right and clearly engage in telegram channels that are far right) and you're telling me not to use those words as the "real far right" may come. I've asked you to define who they would be and what they'd be doing that's different to the far right actions we already have going on (othering and blaming and inviting hate and violence against a particular ethnic group) and you haven't said. I have repeated quite a few times who I'm calling far right so I'm not sure why you are asking me who I'm referring to when I say far right as you clealry know who because you are critiquing me for calling them far right.

I can empathise with that - when you don't know the people but have either firsthand experience of or information bombarding you about things carried out by people who on some level seem similar to them, it's understandable that there's apprehension there.

Most Muslims I know are pretty ordinary people (although that's from my own perspective, so maybe we're all just weird and I can't tell! (joke)). Given the current climate in the UK, some people may be just as worried about their safety around you as you are around them, but if people can find a way past that, we've far more in common than not. Eg, I may be a Muslim, but I'm also: a mum, a working professional, a borderline coffee addict, a tech nerd, a runner (currently on a bit of hiatus though), an animal lover, a terrible cook, and many other things. Oh, and currently deeply regretting getting my DC into drumming. We probably have at least one thing in common (for your sake, hopefully not the drums!).

As for men, while some practising Muslim men (from certain schools) prefer not to physically touch women to whom they're not related, many men will be fine to speak with you, so you don't need to feel like you can't speak to any Muslim man. Different people will have their own boundaries on what they feel is appropriate for them. My DH, eg, is quite practising but is happy to interact with anyone within professional and social boundaries that feel right for him (eg he doesn't really want to hug anyone but wouldn't ignore or exclude anyone because of their sex or faith).

No it is not so address it in your workplace, don't assume all Muslim men are the same.

Me neither, my Muslim colleagues shake womens hands all the time.
And anyway we have different customs for treating men and women in the west too. Even amongst my very liberal, western friends, the blokes will usually greet their female friends with a peck on the cheek and the men get a slap on the back. All cultures have slightly different customs for men and women.

I'd fully favour your home country passing whatever laws they felt appropriate. I lived overseas and learned their language despite 'everyone speaking English' and tried to assimilate into their culture with no desire to change it.

The trick.is (and Starmer should take note if he's feverishly reading mumsnet posts) is to keep politics out of it. They don't need to be "right wing" or "left wing" in the way they see how the economy is run (which is essentially the political difference). They are just racist criminal thugs. That describes them perfectly well in my opinion. If you want to add an economic edge to it, go for it but it seems counter productive.

Are we talking about the same Keir Starmer who recieved huge backlash by the Hindu community for serving beef and beer at the annual diwali party hosted for British Hindus?

Do most Muslim men happily shake a woman's hand? From my lived experience (and don't minimise it please) no not all. I see upthread that some people have experienced a refusal to shake hands too. This needs to be called out. And it is clients not work staff. The Muslims who worked in my firm were well mannered and would never be so rude as to refuse to shake a woman's hand in the UK.

That is just plain rude. Similar to what's happened to me on occasion (not from Muslim men but in workplace situations). The assumption that a male junior colleague is in charge is a common one among men in general. While the people doing that might present it as being 'religious', actually it's just that they're being sexist and unprofessional. Happens around the world and needs stomped on wherever it happens. I can honestly say not one of my Muslim male colleagues would treat someone that way.

ikr, those right wing thugs that rioted in Croydon a few years back...typical tory voters.

Yes, that's not ok either.

In their tweed..

Yeah, that was... not a good move.

I'm sorry I don't really understand what you're saying here. Who is calling for that and how?

I think it's important to discover what breeds extremism and deal with its cause not just its symptoms. I'm sure you'll feel free to disagree.

I don't disagree with that at all. I think people saying why they believe something is important as most of it is based on misinformation and propaganda hence correcting any spread on this thread yet you've implied that doing that silencing people?

oops! 😮

Well, if you pray silently in your head against abortion and you live in an exclusion zone around an abortion clinic, you can be arrested. No joke!

https://www.thefp.com/p/abortion-buffer-zones-united-kingdom-free-speech-arrested-for-praying-in-her-head

But we can't keep politics out of it when there are far right political groups who are courting these people and driving their racism through propaganda and in turn those people are then supporting and voting or donating to those political groups. They aren't just racist criminal thugs with no political home which is what you're trying to suggest as they're entwined. The telegram channels they are grouping on for example aren't just them discussing racist rhetoric, they also have ideals they would like enforced politically. I didn't call them right wing, I called them far right. They're not the same so I don't know why you and @quantumbutterfly are trying to turn the discussion to right wing parties or the conservatives as they're not the topic.