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Conflict in the Middle East
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Dulra · 20/12/2024 13:50

samG76 · 20/12/2024 13:39

Sorry - Irish president has accused the Israelis....

I have not heard this and can't find anything on it outside of Israeli press so unsure what he actually said. It wouldn't be about winning votes because he's not eligible for another term. Possibly yes a senior moment but I can't find much on it tbh.

andIsaid · 20/12/2024 14:03

@SharonEllis

That is a very unfair characterization of my response, and of me. I would like to reply.

I'm interested that you think it was inevitable that people in the UK would celebrate the worst attack on Jews since the Holocaust, an attack that shocked even quite hard headed people in its gratuitous brutality.

Of course it is inevitable, as some people are dicks. The majority did not celebrate. They, like most decent humans, were horrified.

I have to say, I didn't think it was inevitable that people who support Palestine would celebrate this attack so openly & with so much joy.

Nor did I. But, I repeat, they are a minority.

And faux innocence about algorithms

I am not faux anything; I am a grown woman, and I am express my thoughts in a straight forward, reasonable manner. However, if you claim that you only saw celebrations that dreadful Oct day, and that your social media feeds were silent, and that the contrast between the scale of social media condemnation for the George Floyd killing vs silence after the Hamas attack was huge, then yes, I ask again what your algorithm is doing. * *

Implicit in your argument is the idea that the majority of the world joined in celebration of the Hamas attack, which is simply not true and my position can be argued with evidence. This thread is arguing, with evidence, that the Irish are being unfairly characterized by Israel.

So, fine, be blase about it but please don't tell us that hatred of Jewish people, and turning a blind eye to it, doesn't have a bearing on the ongoing response to the conflict.

I still do not accept your framing of the argument. I do not agree that dismay and horror at the conduct of this Israeli government and the IDF in Gaza translates into hatred of Jews in or out of Israel.
Not only, I think it is manipulative to force team those two positions.

@SharonEllis it does seem, from this thread, that you really want to believe that everybody hates Jews and Israel. No matter what anyone says, you seem to want to hold that belief.

So I will leave you to it, all the while feeling terrible for that burden you carry.

Shabbat Shalom.

MothToAnInferno · 20/12/2024 14:30

samG76 · 20/12/2024 13:38

I see the Israel has accused the Israelis of looking to establish settlements in Egypt. Is this a senior moment? There's been no issue with Egypt since the 1979 peace treaty (a good example of how Israel does withdraw from territories in return for peace). Or has he decided that any old bs is a vote-winner as long as it criticises Israel. Where will he think of next? Laos? Swaziland? Note also the breach of Syrian sovereignty destroying chemical weapon sites so they don't fall into the hands of jihadis. Some would think that's a good thing, but clearly not Higgins. I'm beginning to see why Saar took the decision he did...

Im curious why are you are still here looking for people to praise a country whose leader has a warrant out for his arrest for crimes against humanity and who are facing genocide charges and slate a country who are using peaceful legal means to try and stop what they consider to be a genocide? I don't know slating a man for words and saying that you understand why those words hurt Israels feelings so much they can't possibly have an embassy here anymore while Israel have said things like 'we will eliminate everything' then have set about killing 10s of 1000s of people, they said that they would prevent civilians from having food and water then set about blowing up water supplies and closing aid agencies but yeah Michael D what a rotter am I right?

The whole situation is mad.

Auvergne63 · 20/12/2024 15:31

SharonEllis · 19/12/2024 21:02

I don't think your post relates to mine but that aside I do need to remind you that this bit is simply not true.
Most of the world also wept with Israel when Hamas poured over the border and raped and slaughtered everyone in sight.

Within hours there were people on the streets celebrating (I personally saw someone on my way home from work the very next day) not just in the UK but around the world. People who normally reach for their phones to post on social media when sonething globally significant happens were silent - my social media feeds were black for George Floyd & BLM. Nothing for the victims of Hamas. Regardless of what you may thing of the way tbe war developed there were people completely opposed to Israel's right to respond from the start. There were large sections of the pooulation that celebrated Hamas's act of 'resistance'. We need honesty about this.

Please elaborate on who were the large sections of the population who celebrated, in which country? Some celebrated, which is disgusting, but you ask for honesty so I feel that therefore you must be honest about the number too.
Your idea of what constitute large sections might differ to mine.

Kindatired · 20/12/2024 17:06

@samG76 i
Michael D may have be een having a senior moment but he was probably referring to the Philadelphia corridor and this has been picked up as a tool in Israel in the campaign to discredit Ireland. Ireland is an anglophone country so while it’s insignificant and peripheral in many ways, any sensible propagandist with a budget of 146 million US dollars would target the most outspoken English Language critics as a priority.

We see WW2 mentioned again by Mr Sa’ar in connection with his attack on Michael D. This is despite Ireland being one of the only countries on whose soil not a single hair on the head of a Jewish person was lost as a result of the conflict and where, alone in the world, there was specific constitutional protection for the Jewish people.

No smoke without fire as they say. Maybe the lady doth protest too much. The times of India are now referring to the “Egypt plot”.Israel has occupied Parts of Egypt twice before- there’s an interesting image of a settler being dragged out of the Sinai peninsula in the early 80s.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_the_Sinai_Peninsula

Israeli occupation of the Sinai Peninsula - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_the_Sinai_Peninsula

Dulra · 20/12/2024 17:51

After googling for information on it I was treated to a glimpse of what the Israeli press are saying about Ireland it is such hate filled lies. Disgusting. Can you imagine the reactions on here if the Irish media spoke about Israel in the same way. It might sound hysterical but as an Irish person I would not feel comfortable in Israel at the moment

ScrollingLeaves · 20/12/2024 18:23

Kindatired · 20/12/2024 17:06

@samG76 i
Michael D may have be een having a senior moment but he was probably referring to the Philadelphia corridor and this has been picked up as a tool in Israel in the campaign to discredit Ireland. Ireland is an anglophone country so while it’s insignificant and peripheral in many ways, any sensible propagandist with a budget of 146 million US dollars would target the most outspoken English Language critics as a priority.

We see WW2 mentioned again by Mr Sa’ar in connection with his attack on Michael D. This is despite Ireland being one of the only countries on whose soil not a single hair on the head of a Jewish person was lost as a result of the conflict and where, alone in the world, there was specific constitutional protection for the Jewish people.

No smoke without fire as they say. Maybe the lady doth protest too much. The times of India are now referring to the “Egypt plot”.Israel has occupied Parts of Egypt twice before- there’s an interesting image of a settler being dragged out of the Sinai peninsula in the early 80s.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_the_Sinai_Peninsula

Perhaps too not wanting the Irish voice of reason and dissent to spread to their American Irish relatives.

Martymcfly24 · 20/12/2024 19:57

Dulra · 20/12/2024 17:51

After googling for information on it I was treated to a glimpse of what the Israeli press are saying about Ireland it is such hate filled lies. Disgusting. Can you imagine the reactions on here if the Irish media spoke about Israel in the same way. It might sound hysterical but as an Irish person I would not feel comfortable in Israel at the moment

Me neither.
It's vitriolic and so ironic considering what they are accusing Ireland of.
And after reading the Haaratz articles posted on the other thread I would worry about my safety from people(IDF) that can have such capacity for hate and violence.

On another note Michael D's Christmas message was beautiful and he mentioned other ongoing famines and conflicts. You can see how visibly upset he is about the situation.

Kindatired · 20/12/2024 21:21

He used his Christmas message to highlight the fact that Hamas still is holding the hostages. He has been critical of Hamas at every opportunity.

mollyfolk · 20/12/2024 22:19

I would feel safe in Israel. I'm not sure that I would feel safe getting in and out at the moment.

But maybe I'm too optimistic.

mollyfolk · 20/12/2024 22:26

@ScrollingLeaves

Well I do wonder if this American/irish idea has been behind it all. I have read they are generally pro Israeli policies

Ultimately we, as in the Irish, do not have any real influence.

Toomanywars · 21/12/2024 08:37

Dulra · 20/12/2024 13:50

I have not heard this and can't find anything on it outside of Israeli press so unsure what he actually said. It wouldn't be about winning votes because he's not eligible for another term. Possibly yes a senior moment but I can't find much on it tbh.

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/israel-hamas-war-in-gaza-backlash-against-irish-president-michael-d-higgins-for-his-claims-against-israel-4915406

"Mr Higgins went on to say that “it is a very serious business to actually brand a people because in fact they disagree with Prime Minister [Benjamin] Netanyahu, who is in breach of so many bits of international law, and who has breached the sovereignty of three of his neighbours, in relation to Lebanon, Syria, and would like in fact actually to have a settlement into Egypt”."

It comes over as just hate for Israel who have good relations with Egypt.

Toomanywars · 21/12/2024 08:40

"Irish citizen Daniel O'Dowd, spokesman for Ireland Israel Alliance, described the comments by Mr Higgins as “a just outrageous act by the president of this country”."

Toomanywars · 21/12/2024 08:41

And now this latest farcical rant where he says Israel would like to settle Egypt. It is just baseless conspiracy theories which ultimately are debasing the office of the presidency.”

Toomanywars · 21/12/2024 08:43

Let's get the facts straight. From Lebanese territory, Israel's sovereignty was breached for over a year. For no reason and unprovoked, Hezbollah joined Hamas on October 8th and since then fired tens of thousands of missiles, rockets and drones at Israeli citizens and communities. Israel did what any country would – it defended itself against a brutal aggressor.”

Toomanywars · 21/12/2024 08:44

Today the Houthis struck Tel Aviv. I guess Israel should suck it up

Dulra · 21/12/2024 09:37

Toomanywars · 21/12/2024 08:37

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/israel-hamas-war-in-gaza-backlash-against-irish-president-michael-d-higgins-for-his-claims-against-israel-4915406

"Mr Higgins went on to say that “it is a very serious business to actually brand a people because in fact they disagree with Prime Minister [Benjamin] Netanyahu, who is in breach of so many bits of international law, and who has breached the sovereignty of three of his neighbours, in relation to Lebanon, Syria, and would like in fact actually to have a settlement into Egypt”."

It comes over as just hate for Israel who have good relations with Egypt.

It comes over as just hate for Israel
There has been a lot of hate levelled at Ireland with numerous unfounded accusations by Israel.

Higgins met with the Egyptian Prime Minister last week possibly something was said to him then, possibly he misspoke I'm not condoning what he said I just have not heard it reported over here to understand the context I don't trust the Isreali press when it comes to Ireland.

Dulra · 21/12/2024 09:40

Toomanywars · 21/12/2024 08:43

Let's get the facts straight. From Lebanese territory, Israel's sovereignty was breached for over a year. For no reason and unprovoked, Hezbollah joined Hamas on October 8th and since then fired tens of thousands of missiles, rockets and drones at Israeli citizens and communities. Israel did what any country would – it defended itself against a brutal aggressor.”

Let's get the facts straight. I think we've been over this many times. Israel actions have gone well beyond defence and their prime minister is charged with crimes against humanity and they are under investigation for genocide.

OpheliaWasntMad · 21/12/2024 10:09

MD Higgins is quoted as saying Israel has 'has breached the sovereignty of three of his neighbours, in relation to Lebanon, Syria and would like in fact to have a settlement in Egypt'.

If he misspoke then he should put the record straight and apologise.
Making inaccurate claims in a situation like this is very dangerous

OpheliaWasntMad · 21/12/2024 10:09

Separate issue and genuine question..

Do Michael D Higgins comments conflict with his role as president and/ or Ireland’s neutrality?

Dulra · 21/12/2024 10:18

OpheliaWasntMad · 21/12/2024 10:09

MD Higgins is quoted as saying Israel has 'has breached the sovereignty of three of his neighbours, in relation to Lebanon, Syria and would like in fact to have a settlement in Egypt'.

If he misspoke then he should put the record straight and apologise.
Making inaccurate claims in a situation like this is very dangerous

Agree he should clarify what he meant but the hate levelled at Ireland for this comment in the Israeli media is completely inappropriate and disgusting. I'm sick of Israel and posters here holding Ireland to a standard they don't seem to expect of the Israeli government.

I have viewed the footage now and it is a press conference with the Egyptian President where he was responding to a question it was not an official state statement.

Dulra · 21/12/2024 10:24

OpheliaWasntMad · 21/12/2024 10:09

Separate issue and genuine question..

Do Michael D Higgins comments conflict with his role as president and/ or Ireland’s neutrality?

No why would it? We are militarily neutral we don't sit on the fence when we see injustices and human rights violations we have a position on that.

Michael D though does have a tendency to mispeak or overstep the mark at times beyond his role as president which has put the government in awkward positions in the past. He's an 83 year old man so I guess he's at the point in life where he couldn't care less who he annoys. It's worth pointing out that the president is elected directly by the people he is not part of a political party so is separate to our Dail. The position is mainly a figure head.

Martymcfly24 · 21/12/2024 10:26

OpheliaWasntMad · 21/12/2024 10:09

Separate issue and genuine question..

Do Michael D Higgins comments conflict with his role as president and/ or Ireland’s neutrality?

No.
https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2023/1017/1389911-just-what-can-the-president-of-ireland-actually-say-and-do/

Once he does not come in conflict with the government he can have opinions..

And the government are completely on the same page as him.

Just what can the President of Ireland actually say and do?

While there are significant restrictions on what the President can do, the Constitution places few limitations on what he or she might say

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2023/1017/1389911-just-what-can-the-president-of-ireland-actually-say-and-do

Martymcfly24 · 21/12/2024 10:32

Dulra · 21/12/2024 10:24

No why would it? We are militarily neutral we don't sit on the fence when we see injustices and human rights violations we have a position on that.

Michael D though does have a tendency to mispeak or overstep the mark at times beyond his role as president which has put the government in awkward positions in the past. He's an 83 year old man so I guess he's at the point in life where he couldn't care less who he annoys. It's worth pointing out that the president is elected directly by the people he is not part of a political party so is separate to our Dail. The position is mainly a figure head.

True and he has a history of activism over the years as well as being a poet, socialist and passionate about the Irish language . He might have misspoke on this occasion but his reputation speaks for itself.

"Early on he earned a reputation as a leftist firebrand who opposed participation in coalition government. His radical commitment to human rights and to peace and justice in places such as Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Cambodia, as well as his advocacy of progressive issues such as equal pay for women and the rights of people with disabilities, remained constant, but he mellowed over the years to accept coalition rule."
(Source : Britannica)

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